@cteavin:
@royalcrown89:
col·lu·sion
[kəˈlo͞oZHən]
NOUN
secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive others
It is illegal to hack into voter data bases and it is illegal to hand over personal voter data in an attempt to increase one's chances of being elected as president. Personal voter data includes, party registration, addresses, phone numbers, email addresses and ID or voter card numbers. That level of personal information was used to target individuals and it's possible that Americans helped access and provide that information to a foreign power. That's the allegation being investigated by one part of Mueller's investigation and then there's the matter of trying to cover up the investigation that began prior to Mueller being appointed as special counsel. Are you not aware that two separate grand juries (one in Virginia, one in D.C.) are handling those two parts of the investigation?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/08/04/russia-special-counsel-robert-mueller-using-multiple-grand-juries/540959001/
Actually, the definition is more complex than what you posted.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/collusion
So what you've been trying to tell me is that someone on Team Trump passed voter info to a Russian agent in order to target small groups with precise advertising through social media such as Facebook and Twitter. Is that correct?
Well, the article you linked to said it best, it's going to take "years" to prove or disprove.
Let me give you a little advice on how to talk about this from someone very far removed. Most people aren't bright, which is why they could be swayed by fake news via social media. Do you really think these people understand the nuances in the word collusion? Use descriptives that are in everyday speech such as conspiracy and fraud. Treason would make you sound biased and collusion calls up partisan reporting.
So let's sum up:
We agree that Muller is investigating Russia for possible conspiracy to commit voter fraud by microtargeting individuals with fake advertisements/information in order to sway people on the fence to not vote Hillary or vote Trump.
People, like me, who find this a non-issue feel so because 1) manipulating election is part o global politics, 2) if a voter is dumb enough to believe a FB post there's nothing more that can be done (you can't fix stupid), 3) the (over) reaction from day one (think pink hats and protest) make this investigation seem like Trump's Birther Issue rather than a clear sign that something illegal happened.
And we simply disagree on whether Muller should release Trump's tax returns. I feel it's not an obligation for Trump to disclose them and you think tradition mandates that he must and Muller is the means.
Are we good?
This came from the page of the link you posted:
{n. where two persons (or business entities through their officers or other employees) enter into a deceitful agreement, usually secret, to defraud and/or gain an unfair advantage over a third party, competitors, consumers or those with whom they are negotiating. Collusion can include secret price or wage fixing, secret rebates, or pretending to be independent of each other when actually conspiring together for their joint ends. It can range from small-town shopkeepers or heirs to a grandma's estate, to gigantic electronics companies or big league baseball team owners.}
"…pretending to be independent of each other when actually conspiring together for their joint ends," specifically applies to some of what could have happened during the election. How many times did we all hear Russia say, "we had nothing to do with anything," and #45 claimed it could have been a 400-pound person on a bed somewhere; meanwhile our intelligence agencies found otherwise?
He is investigating the attempts at voter fraud and the possibility that they were helped by Americans who wanted one candidate to win the election. I've stated that this whole thing could very well be a security screw up by the Obama administration. Hell, it could even be Hillary Clinton who caused all of this knowing that she'd lose the election because for the past few election cycles we've gone from Republican to Democrat, Democrat to Republican. It is possible that she obtained and handed over voter data to Russians and President Obama and his friends have been leaving breadcrumbs behind to frame this current president. Nothing is off the table here. Still, all of this is alleged and you are absolutely right, it could take years. No matter how long it takes, the truth will come out.
We disagree on what should happen with the taxes. He should release them because the deeper this goes, the more suspicious he will look. There were many people who assumed nothing would come of Watergate and Nixon spent much of his time claiming "fake news" and that the media "was after him." Look how well that turned out. Are there people that look at this as #45's birther issue? Yes, I have no doubt about it. For me, it's all about the truth. It will never sit right with me that he is the only president in modern history not to release his taxes because he's also the only president in modern history to come in with so many conflicts of interests and so many ties to the foreign power accused of working with him to attack our democracy.
