Section 2 that allows statesto discriminate against gays in marriage will still be defended, as part of "state's rights". However, no one ever talks about how DOMA {specifically Section 2} killed the full faith and credit clause of the constitution all because of hate mongers.
Intelligence Squared does a series of debates every year on various topics and here is the one on "Is the catholic church a force for good?" from 2009.
This is the entire debate with the voting results, broken into 5 parts of about 9.5 minutes. I'm not sure why, but some times you need to select the next part rather than it automatically starting on it's own.
hXXp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kuzYwzGoXw&feature=related
It should be noted that, while they do give a brief bit of info on Anne Widdecombe, they leave out that she is a hard core catholic convert and she often slags off the church for being too liberal. She also claims to be a virgin for god, but it probably has more to do with how ugly she is rather than her religious beliefs.
@ fancydude
Well, I think we're just on opposite poles and aren't getting anywhere since you ignoring stuff is exponentially increasing just like your philosophical cohort Raphjd so I see no point in taking this further.
If we only said bad things about muslims,you'd be in the center of this thread and loving it. However, since we also included christianity, you aren't happy at all.
If you were able to switch into unbias mode, you'd see that you are slagging off everything to justify the abuses by your religion.
And before you bitch about the cost of a helicopter, bitch about how much wealth your church has accumulated over the last 2,000 years that could help a lot of people. And while you are at it, think how they got a lot of that wealth.
Maybe so, but does your country keep telling you how much equality you have and therefore should worship the government?
BTW, we're meeting with our MP today at 4:30pm to discuss the anti gay inequality that remains in UK laws. Her name is Anne Begg and she was just made a Dame for championing the rights of the disabled.
The UK government loves to brag about how "equal" it's laws are.
Excluding the anti penis rules in the UK state pension system {and in countless other areas of law}, there are some homophobic rules that people should be aware of.
The rules regarding state pensions, such as top ups, spouse/partner credits, etc do not apply to gay MALE couples until April 2015. Married women have always had these rights, and married men and lesbian couples got these rights last year {May 2010}.
Married women and lesbian couples get 100% of their spouse/partner's state pension when the spouse/partner dies. HOWEVER, married men and gay men couples only get 50% of their spouse/partner's state pension upon death.
Women can get state pension credits by staying home and being a house wife, with or without kids. This is not possible for men, so make sure your man makes enough to provide for you in your old age if you wnat to stay home and take care of the house.
While the law says that work and private {ISAs} pensions must go to the surviving spouse upon death, they are specifically exempted from this requirement for civil partnerships. The law says that they may if they wish give spouse type survivor benefits to civil partnerships. According to a recent study, less than 2% of UK businesses give pension survivor benefits to civil partnerships.
So when you are planning your retirement, keep these issues in mind.
Again, the UK government said it has no interest in revisiting gay equality as it deems LGBTs has already being equal under the law.
NOTE: While the above doesn't take into consideration any kids in the relationships, the rules are still very much the same as above when kids are included.
Where would you like to live- the USA (or most of Europe?) or Iraq? Esp. as a Gay male?
Let's be fair about this and ask the question in a proper way.
As a gay man where would you rather live, Uganda (majority catholic) or Iraq (majority muslim)?
OR
As a gay man where would you rather live, Jamaica (mainly christian) or Turkey (mainly muslim)?
If you look, Turkey is very similar to the US in it's treatment of gays in virtually all aspects of life.
Spin - I don't think I ever said I was unbiased towards Christianity - being raised that way, and more or less still practicing (as in the love your neighbor stuff ; not the: I've committed mortal sin if I miss Mass here and there - or Gay sex!) - I don't know if that is even possible. I try to be objective about other religions. I've already said and demonstrated in the previous exchanges that Christianity isn't without its flaws. If I argued that as a practical matter, it is more forgiving and more compatible with democracy than often unyielding theocracies - for that I will not apologize.
Your religion is just as unyielding as any other. However, you admit you reject the parts of your religion you don't like, while defending your religion as being more yielding. You made your religion more yielding by the very fact that you cherry picked the bits you like, rather than staying faithful to your faith.
I can prove that any religion is the best on earth, once I reject the bits I don't like.
Face it, your holy text say that you must be executed and your church says you are going to burn in hell for eternity. You have made a mockery of the whole confession thing that as a catholic is part of the core of your religion by not being honest about your sins and still being actively gay.
hXXp://minnesotaindependent.com/58393/gop-linked-punk-rock-ministry-says-executing-gays-is-moral
Here's a US christian ministry that says executing gays is moral. Of course they are just saying what the bible {as currently written} says.
I just saw on the news that later today, a UK court will rule on whether a mentally disabled woman should be sterilized after she gives birth in a couple of weeks. There is no attempt to ban her from having sex.
hXXp://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7023158562?British%20court%20mulls%20forced%20surgical%20sterility%20for%20disabled%20woman
This is more proof that the UK is still very homophobic.
EDIT: The case has been adjourned until after she has the baby in May.
Let's not forget that it was the christians that committed genocide against the muslims in Bosnia.
I think anyone reading this with a neutral eye can see that I have not exempted Christianity from scrutiny. I've invited you to compare very specific situations with pointed questions and you've ignored most of them. I'm well aware that Christianity isn't just flowers and puppies.
YES, you have exempted christianity from scrutiny. You say that all/vast majority of muslims do evil things only because of their religion, then say that christians do evil things even though they happen to be christians.
You want to control the discusion so it suits your wants/needs. That's why you got upset because I refused to maintain your dictated topics.
I've specifically said lay the blame where it should be. I acknowledged the US had their own terrorists before you mentioned it. I know capitalism has some terrible excesses, I cited the books I"ve read thinking that would be enough, but apparently not. So here's an example: I know that the USA meddles in the affairs of other countries and our corporations do some terrible things like sell poor countries seeds that don't reproduce so they have to buy again from these corporations. But none of that is religiously motivated, it is just plain human greed. I've even agreed with you about the diminishing role of religion and I get accused of anger where there is none.
YES, you refuse to admit that GWB, Gods Army, Christian Identity and countless others have done evil things because of their religion. How about the IRA in the UK?! I wouldn't doubt if there are still white preachers still teaching that the mark of cain is talking about black people.
Capitalism can't use religion, however the people that are part of the capitalist system can and do use religion to justify their actions.
Christians, including the mormons, are funding hate against people they don't like, especially gays.
It is clear that in Christian societies people have much more freedom, especially women. This alone cannot be highlighted enough. The governments do not act on behalf of a Church or specifically for religious leaders. That is probably why the founders of the USA tried to separate Church & state. Most people would prefer to live in a western style democracy. You asked me to say which is better for Gays, Christianity or Islam? Well, if I remember correctly, a Muslim theocracy executed two young men by hanging last year for homosexual relations. Name a primarily Christian country where the government did the same.
Ever hear of the Southern Baptists?! They believe women should be bare foot, pregnant and in the kitchen, while being totally subservient to the men in her family. Sound a lot like the muslims you are complaining about.
Let's talk about gays. People, not just gays, are still being murdered simply because some asshole thinks they might be gay. Then when they go to trial, they get to use the "gay panic" defense {aka "Guardsman" or "Portsmouth" defence in the UK} and the jury either totally lets them off, despite there being no evidence to justify the "gay panic" defense or they get a light slap on the wrist. About 4 years ago, there was a case in Michigan where a guy murdered a gay man and used the "gay panic" defense. After the trial, and double jeopardy was applied, a couple of the jurors came forward and admitted that they let the guy off even though they didn't believe him, simply because the victim was gay. They both said because of their christian beliefs, they could never convict a person that killed a homosexual because they were doing what god wanted.
If we talk about black centric nations that wear their religion on their sleeves, it's much, much worse for gays. You seriously need to investigate christian black centric countries to truly understand how bad they are for gays. They use the bible to justify their evil treatment of gays. Jamaica is well known as being the world's most homphobic nation. Last year, a man paid some thugs to beat his ASSUMED gay son to death while he went to the local church and prayed the god wouldn't hate him for producing a gay son. The police did nothing about the murder, in fact, they condoned what the father did.
As I previously said, both the bible and the koran demand that gays be executed. Oddly, most scholars {believers and non believers} say the current bible is full of mistranslation, the vast majority of christians refuse to accept this and demand that everyone still hate gays.
No matter where you live, you can not turn on a TV without hearing several preachers spewing hate against gays, telling everyone how god hates us and that we must be destroyed. According to your own church doctrine, you are going to burn in hell for eternity.
I doubt if we'll discuss anything in the future so I could be nasty here or pious and wish you peace and I can't really do either one. It is just kind of sad and unfortunate that I've typed so much for you to ignore or twist and then try to lay all the blame at my feet.
If I "ignored" something, it was because you wouldn't properly respond to what I said, so I was trying to keep you on track.
You can not slag off muslims and expect your religion to be exempt from the same scrutiny, otherwise you are being hypocritical.
You have blinders on that will not let you see that christianity isn't all flowers and puppies. That is why no one can talk to you about topics like this.
I give up.
You have a way of disconnecting my responses to what you wrote, so there is no point continuing further.
You mention slavery was justified by the Bible. Yes it was, but tell the whole story. Slavery was practiced all over the world for most of the world's existence. And in many parts of the world it still is, albeit sometimes illegally. That doesn't make it right, but people are a product of their times. And as I mentioned on another thread with you I think - people couldn't choose between being a slave and getting a job at the corner Walmart! That option wasn't there. People evolved. Being a serf in medieval Europe was essentially being a slave. Working for script and not cash in 18th century America was essentially being a slave. African countries (ie African people) were the slave sellers, the Hutus murdered the Tustsi by the hundreds etc. etc. etc. and yet when anything ever comes up about the African continent it is only White Europeans who are the villains. ONLY them.
Have I ever denied that Africans were involved in the slave trade? NO, I haven't and there are many threads scattered around the internet by me that clearly state that they profited as much as anyone else from it.
An indentured servant in medieval Europe is not the same as a slave in the 18th century US/Europe. One had a choice to sell themselves into it, while the other was forced kicking and screaming into it.
Using the "people evolve" argument, then what exactly are you believing in? Is the bible god's word or is it man's word for their version of "god"? Isn't it convenient that god evolves with the whims of man? That says to me that god is a creation of man and not worthy of worship.
Perhaps the US did have a hand in 9/11, obviously we'll never know for sure. But for you to completely ignore what I said - anything other than proof is conjecture - makes discussion meaningless. There are people who said the USA didn't really land on the moon. And on it goes. I also clearly said I didn't recall what the polls said, that was a made up example - and you bring it into the discussion as if it were fact.
You brought it up in an attempt to show how crazy you thought muslims were. That's why you said "it's crazy stuff like" to describe what they believe. That is why I went into detail about PNAC and the fact that many Americans and Europeans believe the same thing and some of the reasons why.
You made this part of the discussion meaningless by bring up a subject, then getting angry when I respond.
But I must say this - we have a huge divorce rate and unwed birth rate. I would say based on that plenty of people in the USA ignore religion completely or it is a social activity only, not a guide to living one's life. If GWB wore religion on his sleeve, it was to get elected. To appeal to enough of that segment of people who VOTE. Reagan promised a lot of things to the religious crowd too and delivered zero.
If GWB was only using religion for votes, then explain why he kept it up when he became a lame duck and still keeps it up to this very day.
An atheist has zero chance of getting elected in the US for the foreseeable several billion millennia.
I do see that preachers that spew hate influence crimes, but oddly things are slowly getting better. We have SSM in several states and civil unions in others. (Just 20 years ago, that it would occur was positively fantasy land/unthinkable and yet we have it) Social change is like that. No one is ever on board 100%.
Things are getting better for gays and others in spite of religion. Thankfully, people are seeing through the veil of religion and seeing that god was created in the image of man, not the other way around.
Christian churches are still funding hate filled campaigns to deny us equality.
Actually, I have gone to church my whole life and I never heard anything about homosexuality in the Catholic church on Sunday! There is an encyclical by one of the Popes in the last 20 years that says, believe it or not, homosexuals are persons of sacred worth. Yes, it continues on by saying we must be celibate and it is morally disordered. But the words 'we are evil" aren't there. When I was much younger and went to confession about it I was treated with great compassion. (now I laugh about it and would NEVER go to confession about my sexuality) Yes, that is only my story, but it is the truth.
I guess you don't read the news. Catholics (christians in general) aren't always the most gay friendly people on earth.
Your church teaches that if you aren't celibate, you are going to burn in hell for eternity. Yeah, that's pleasant enough.
The bible and the koran both clearly teach that gays are supposed to be killed. So who's worse in that regard?! I know you will say muslims.
If you want to keep going tit for tat, we can - I delivered typewriters to this fundy church and they had a big sign about "outreach". I asked one of the women working there - the church was right next to Dearborn. She said many Muslim women came there because their husbands would beat them when pregnant to lose the baby if the ultrasound showed it was a girl. They wanted boy babies. How often do you think this happens with Christian marriages?
Ever hear of far east Asia, especially China? So don't claim it's just muslims.
If you want to talk about evil, how many boys have your priests molested?
But if we're going to argue or discuss, please at least use what I actually wrote.
I did use exactly what you wrote.
I can't think of the polls right now, but I get several major magazines (US News, The Week) but it is crazy stuff like 60% of Iraqis think the world trade center bombings were done by Americans!
I showed why gloabally, not just muslims, think the US had a hand in 9/11.
Just because you don't like my answer, it doesn't mean I didn't use what you wrote.
BTW, we may not have fully taken over Iraq, but we did get control of the oil and other contracts.
While you may not have said ALL, that is the impression you seem to be giving off.
Speaking of Israel, you will find that most of Europe sides with the Palestinians because they view Israel's actions as being heavy handed and extremely hypocritical. Israel has no more right to exist than any other country, yet Americans due to their over reliance on religion think it's sacred and must exist for eternity. So NO, you won't find any mainstream anti Israel church.
You already admitted that there are plenty of christian preachers that spew hate. Spewing hate is just as bad because crack heads are going to and do think that means they are doing good when they do evil things. Slavery was justified using the bible. The holocaust was justified using the bible. The catholic church is extremely homophobic. While they may not directly tell people to kill us, they certainly make sure everyone knows we're evil and they also tell their flocks to fight evil. Put 2 and 2 together.
I'm disappointed that you can not or will not see that the constant hate "preaching" toward groups does lead to increased violence against those groups.
Institutions, nations, etc, etc should apologize for their actions, no matter how long ago it was. Your church has plenty to apologize for and maybe that's why you don't like the idea, because they'd be apologizing for eternity for their past sins. You love Israel and the jews so much, yet look at the role your church played during and after WW2.
I'm not sure why you brought slavery and Affirmative Action/quotas into this conversation. There's a difference between apologizing and AA/quotas.
Why do I say that you are desperate? Let's go back and look at what's been said here. You said that 60% of muslims think that Americans had a hand it 9/11. I reply to that showing why people all over the world think the same way and you say our Presidents that I mentioned didn't do anything out of religion. While I never ever implied they did, GWB repeatedly and constantly wore his religion on his sleeve, as did Tony Blair. GWB even called this whole mess his crusades. So you tried to turn this into a muslim thing, when in fact it's a global thing.
Go look up PNAC and check out the names of the members, then google them. You will find that they were notorious christians, like Rumsfeld who forced prayer on the people that worked for him, despite separation of church and state. I can't remember which of th etop of my head, but either Rumsfeld or Ashcroft ordered that all male nude statues on federal property have their man bits covered up because it violated his beliefs. You may remember that one of your popes took a chisel and hacked off a lot of statue cocks for the same reason. PNAC was basically far right wing conservative christians and jews.
Papa Bush famously said that atheists are not citizens or patriots.
You should also check out the writings of your various early church leaders.
I believe it was St Augustine of Hippo that said; "You get a better sort of christian through the sword, than if they come to the faith willingly".
Or how about this; "Clearly the person who accepts the Church as an infallible guide will believe whatever the Church teaches." by Thomas Aquinas
Here's what Jesus has to say for himself in Matt 10:34-39; "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—a man's enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."
I'm not sure I agree with this.
How can anyone be sure that a person always takes their medication?!
Low risk is not no risk.
the risk of transmission for an HIV-positive individual on successful treatment was less than one in 100,000
How much science has been done to prove this?!
that it was highly unlikely that the soldier could have infected either women because of his low viral load
Ok, so Stevie Wonder can never be charged with attempted murder if he shoots a gun at someone because he's blind and the likely hood of him killing the person is low.
Ted Kaczynski and Timothy McVeigh weren't religious as far as I know.
However, the Army of God bombed abortion clinics and murdered abortion doctors. Eric Rudolph is a believer that bombed the Olympics, among other terrorist crimes.
How many years did it take for the Pope to condemn the violence in the name of religion?! Violence due to religion has gone on since the beginning of time. They didn't condemn the bombing of the gay bar in London or the one in Atlanta.
Why are you so desperate to separate the hate mongering words of christian leaders and the actions of some of their followers, but condemn all muslims based on the words of some of their leaders? It's the hate spewing christian preachers that make it still acceptable to kill gays, abortion doctors and for juries to acquit the murderers. As a christian/catholic, you are less likely to see the connections other christians/catholics have to terrorism, then you are to see those of muslims. It's common nature.
A lot of Americans and Europeans believe that the US government had a hand in 9/11. Go back and look at some of the evidence that they put forward. The idea to create a terrorist attack/disaster on American soil is well known. Kennedy considered doing it against Cuba to justify an all out invasion and ever since Pearl Harbor, people have claimed the FDR allowed it to happen so he'd have an excuse to join the war. PNAC is a conservative think tank who said that we needed some sort of terrorist event so we could go into the middle east and take over a country and get their oil fields for the US. They wrote that during Clinton's Presidency. Most of PNAC were part of the Reagan and papa Bush administrations and then ended up in the GWB administration. They get back in power and suddenly what they wanted to happen becomes a reality, yea for them. We know for a fact that GWB was told starting in January 2001 that a plane attack was a likely even in the very near future and he did nothing. People get sentenced to death in the US based on far less circumstantial evidence.
The reason I brought up home grown American terrorists is because you said they weren't religious. Most of them are christian who used their religion to justify their terrorism, just like muslims do. Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Oral Robert, and most other christian leaders spew hate from the pulpit, knowing that some idiots are going to do their dirty work. Turn on the TV on Sunday and watch the hate flow.
There's a problem with both christianity and islam. Neither group's leaders will be vocal in criticize the lunatics. When the UK had the 7/7 and 7/21 bombings, it was nearly impossible to get a muslim on TV to condemn it. The same thing when gay bars and abortion clinics got blown up in the US. You couldn't get a christian to come on tv to condemn it.
Jews and muslims are not supposed to charge their own interest, according to their holy text, but it's great to charge outsiders interest.
There's been recent discussions in the UK over muslim men grooming young white girls for sex because they whites girls as disposable, while they want to keep their girls pure for marriage. It's been reported that out of 56 cases like this in Bradford, 53 were muslim men mostly of which were from Pakistan. Ok, Bradford is a high muslim area, but why were only white girls targeted? Even the Guardian newspaper, which is calling us all "islamaphobes", says a study shows that 20% of all under age grooming for sex cases in the UK are committed by muslim men. However, muslims {both men and women} only make up about 2.8% of the UK population according to the 2001 census. So in reality, 1.3% of the UK population are committing 20% of this type of crime.
Yes, muslims {majority} view the west, especially the US, as the great satan. Some of this I can understand and some of this is misplaced blame for things the UK and France did. The US propped up evil dictators like the Shah of Iran, while the UK and France chopped up and gave away Kurdistan after WW1 and the Kurds have been slaughtered and persecuted ever since by the countries that got the 4 chunks.
Jews used terrorism to get Israel and they started long before WW2 even became a glint in Hitler's eye. But now they are whining about terrorism.
And what about the polls conducted in Iraq, Iran etc?
I'm not sure what you are referring to.
Yeah, they hate us. Is that something new? The west is guilty of a lot of things, but the muslims are creating their own problems and blaming the west for many things too.
If you are referring to the Iranians' belief that the elections have been rigged, well they are finally catching on.
The reason that we allow muslims to immigrate to the west is because we take pity on their "lowly existence" in a 3rd world dictatorship. Of course many use that as an excuse to come to the west to try and convert it to their liking by any means necessary {bombs or lawsuits}.
There are several international immigration laws that demand that certain people are given refugee status. Like most other laws, they know how to work the system here too. Most travel illegally through Europe heading to soft touch UK with no documents so they can't be sent home.
There's another documentary coming on this week {or is it next week} of undercover filming at tax payer funded mulsim schools where they are teaching hate for all things not muslim. Yep, the UK allows religious schools to pretty much teach whatever they want and use tax payer money to fund it.
The US has had plenty of terrorists, most of which are of the christian persuasion. Bombing abortion clinics and gay bars, snipering {I made a new word} people they don't like in their own homes and the list goes on and on.
The koran tells muslims to spread the "word" by any means. A lot of people cry foul when the violence in the koran is mentioned but people have to know it's there to understand some of the attitudes we are seeing.