Posts made by fancydude

Spin - I will have to re-read your entire answer- but just for now "am I expressing myself clearly" referred to Pew Research - (whether or not the link on Huffington Post to the Investors Business Daily was legit")since your very first reply was approximately  "they are a reputable group and do some fascinating stuff"   Email and live conversation for that matter can always be interpreted more than one way, unfortunately.

Modified after this:

I visited France, Italy and Switzerland many years ago and the people of France, the food, culture, history - it was wonderful.  I can see why you would want to live there.  Many of the people I went with were very obnoxious about making it known they were from the USA and got some probably deserved poor treatment,  I was much quieter and most of the natives thought I was from England.

Okay, I pretty much understood implicit vs. explicit although I readily admit that I wouldn't have expressed it nearly as well as you - so I have no problem agreeing with  "…skills as interlocutor could use some polishing."  I'm kind of amused though when you say "... I suspect you have an automatic preference for Christian based mythology vs. Islam based mythology."  First I don't see why it was necessary to add the word "mythology" so tell me why you did?  Second I already said very explicitly I think Christianity allows for much greater freedoms for its citizens, generally.  And most Christian countries are much more tolerant of non Christian religions than vice versa.

If this is not true, then we have to figure out what the truth is.  Do we base that on our own experiences or what we read? Or both?  Which sources are valid?  Is what I read or experience invalid and what you read and experience valid?  Or are research and opinion polls often invalid or don't tell the whole story?  There are many complaints against the USA - I don't doubt for a minute that a great many are true.  So why are people continuing to flock here instead of leave?

Which brings me to the test - I readily admit I know little of my Muslim neighbors.  I know more about my ESL students but not enough to have "hot or cold" feelings about Islam.  I do know I have treated both with the utmost respect and have been well liked enough to have been invited to student homes and functions, which no other teacher has been.  My personal positions do not interfere with objective decisions.  We voted on the call to prayer being broadcast - many people were against it - I voted to allow it.  If the Church bells can ring, so can the Mosque broadcast the call to prayer.    I will again take the test, but I don't think it is going to give me any major surprises!

Spin - it locked up (is my DSL connection too slow maybe?)  In my previous (long) post, I only asked you two questions - which each only require a one word response - any particular reason for no answer?

Spin - it asks how you feel about this or that.  Then demographics then the words.  Which is why I made the comment I did about interpretation first then ask demographic questions! 

Spin - I don't think I ever said I was unbiased towards Christianity - being raised that way, and more or less still practicing (as in the love your neighbor stuff ; not the:   I've committed mortal sin if I miss Mass here and there - or Gay sex!) - I don't know if that is even possible.  I try to be objective about other religions.  I've already said and demonstrated in the previous exchanges that Christianity isn't without its flaws. If I argued that as a practical matter, it is more forgiving and more compatible with democracy than often unyielding theocracies -  for that I will not apologize.   Where would you like to live- the USA (or most of Europe?) or Iraq?  Esp. as a Gay male?

I did try to take the test and it got stuck and wouldn't move when I was identifying the "good" and "bad" words.  Obviously I didn't get to the "interpretation" part since I didn't complete the modules, but I would have had a lot more faith in it if had asked my age & religion, location etc.  AFTER it interpreted the raw test data!  I may try it again after rebooting my computer.  I would like to know, if there is a general way to answer this without prejudicing my taking the test:  What does it prove to ask if I'm warm or cold about a specific religion?  I know very little of actual practice of Buddhism nor do I know any Buddhists personally.  I think this would be true in reverse for many of them.  I live in a primarily Christian area of the USA although we are getting more Muslims all the time, though the language and cultural barriers prevent much interaction. I have tried to interact:  I have offered all my Muslim neighbors home canned fruits and things, speak to their children, give them books (which they politely accept and say thankyou, + return the washed jars) but I  have received nothing in return.  Nor do the adults who can speak english initiate any conversations. However, I only just thought of this now, so as to the test itself I was trying to answer how I felt about the religion in general, not about specific individuals.  My French teacher in high school mentioned that people in other countries think the streets are paved with gold in America, refugees romanticize about their country of origin since it was often a forceable relocation; "forgetting about the horrors" of what they left behind….I take all this into consideration when thinking about specific people.  Also my Muslim neighbors are from Bangladesh and Pakistan as were the students in my ESL classes at the library.  I found them extremely eager to learn and courteous.  They would stand up everytime the teacher (me) entered the room!  Thanks for the interesting information.

As to the Pew research - if you go back to where I first linked, (that Poll that was supposedly legit from Pew research posted at Investor's Business Daily) it seemed to be bogus.  I wasn't suggesting for a minute that Pew research as an organization is bogus,  just that particular poll. A commenter suggested that it was presented as Pew but actually wasn't.    But then when I got into what I presume is actual data of what Muslims think about government, etc. on Pew Globals' site ; gender separation at work etc. I guess it might be legit after all.  Am I expressing myself clearly?

I think Wendy's was "where's the beef?"  and Burger King was "have it your way".

Does anyone think BBB & cum #04 looks photoshopped (in post #1) or at least photographed in a most unusual way.  It looks like it is "away" from the body.  It is definitely large, but if his torso is like most people, his dick would have to be like 18" long (I used a yardstick).  It doesn't look 18" to me.

;D Okay the obvious question - I want to know where you shop!  :cheesy2:

I think anyone reading this with a neutral eye can see that I have not exempted Christianity from scrutiny.  I've invited you to compare very specific situations with pointed questions and you've ignored most of them.  I'm well aware that Christianity isn't just flowers and puppies.

I've specifically said lay the blame where it should be.  I acknowledged the US had their own terrorists before you mentioned it. I know capitalism has some terrible excesses, I cited the books I"ve read thinking that would be enough, but apparently not.  So here's an example:  I know that the USA meddles in the affairs of other countries and our corporations do some terrible things like sell poor countries seeds that don't reproduce so they have to buy again from these corporations.  But none of that is religiously motivated, it is just plain human greed.  I've even agreed with you about the diminishing role of religion and I get accused of anger where there is none.

It is clear that in Christian societies people have much more freedom, especially women.  This alone cannot be highlighted enough.  The governments do not act on behalf of a Church or specifically for religious leaders.  That is probably why the founders of the USA tried to separate Church & state.  Most people would prefer to live in a western style democracy.  You asked me to say which is better for Gays, Christianity or Islam?  Well, if I remember correctly, a Muslim theocracy executed two young men by hanging last year for homosexual relations.  Name a primarily Christian country where the government did the same.

I doubt if we'll discuss anything in the future so I could be nasty here or pious and wish you peace and I can't really do either one.  It is just kind of sad and unfortunate that I've typed so much for you to ignore or twist and then try to lay all the blame at my feet.

Q.  Why do women have such a hard time finding caring sensitive men?

A.  Because those men already have boyfriends!

**************

Q. What do Gay guys and the Bermuda Triangle have in common?

A. They've both swallowed a lot of seamen.

*************

Jack:  Do you know the difference between a cocksucker and a roast beef sandwich?
Mack:  No.
Jack:  Then come to my house for lunch tomorrow!

************

Brad:  Did you hear about the Gay guy on the patch?
Tad:  Yeah, he's down to three butt's a day.

A 90 year old man goes to the drugstore and asks for Viagra, but he wants each pill cut into 8 pieces. The pharmacist was quite surprised but he said he could help the man, but added "cutting the pills in that many pieces won't do much." The old man replied "it doesn't need to do much, I just want it to stick out far enough so I stop peeing on my shoe!"

Raphjd - you can quit discussing if you like but I'll say this - you are cherry picking!  Or you completely change the focus!  So what if GWB wears religion on his sleeve.  Prove or even postulate he is acting in concert or at the behest of an organized religious group.

If he acts on his own religious beliefs, or belief system if not religious, don't we all do that?

I think I've tried to respond to almost everything you've put forth.

I did find a poll - a commenter posted a link to Investor's Daily on Huffington Post - 84% of Egyptians want a theocracy.  73% want adulterers stoned etc. **** STuff like that - I may have the numbers a bit off.  But when you criticize Christianity, you have to go back centuries to St. Augustine! If you say the Pope doesn't condemn violence and I say he did, you say not soon enough.  This is not rational discussion.

Spintendo - Slavery and the Bible was brought up in post #12 by Raphjd.  I didn't mention all those other things because I'm not trying to reconcile the Bible with modern life.  I said that because the Bible sanctioned slavery at a time when there were not other job options, does not make the entire book invalid without telling the other side.

The fact that slavery, servitude and the divine right of kings existed at one time  is a fact of history, is it not?   A fact is not me trying to "allow" for religion as you say or disallow/disapprove of the practice, it is simply stating a fact.

****  I later read the comments - one alleged this link (which said it was Pew research) was bogus -so I went to to the actual Pew website which said Egyptians are about equally divided on the question "does religion play a large or small role in government" but then a very large number (I don't recall exactly, it was well over 80%) felt Islam's influence in politics was positive.  So the answers to the first question don't seem to convey the Egyptians true feelings.  I can also say that whenever Farahkan is mentioned in the Detroit newspapers, they always tiptoe around what he says and so I called the editorial desk.   They told me if they printed what he actually said (the really controversial stuff) they would get thousands of telephone calls.  So there you are - the media censoring out actual statements by their own admission.

#  this link appears legit: http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/#prc-jump

85% of Nigerian Muslims and 58% of Egyptian Muslims favor the death penalty for those who leave the faith
54% of Egyptians favor gender segregation in the workplace

If only the above is true, that doesn't sound bizarre to you?  What in Christianity compares to this?

I haven't said anything that shows I'm angry.  Because I'm not.  We disagree and I'm trying to explain my ideas.  I'm not sure if you''re angry or not - seems like you might be.  One last attempt:

1.  A serf is not an indentured servant.  Being essentially owned by a company that pays you in script is not a choice.  Contracts, however unfair, are enforceable by police, courts and jails.  If there are no other options I wonder how freely the indentured servant's choice was.  Not only that, who do you think came up with the indentured servant idea?  The poor person or the rich person with power? Hmmm.

2. You said flatly "the Bible sanctioned slavery" as if that made everything in it invalid.  I responded by saying tell the whole story,  It will be difficult indeed to discuss anything if I have to know by heart everything you've ever posted.   For me to say 'people evolved' is not endorsing or showing my beliefs in any way.  Most people in the world have some sort of rights and are no longer property of the king.  I use of the words "people evolved" to convey that idea.  Would "societies evolved" be better?  However, to the heart of the matter - I don't pretend to have all the answers about God.  Perhaps an analogy will serve - children are born into this world, otherwise obviously people would die off.  Growing up is essentially the same for all, birth, growth, learning and pain;  sorrows and happiness, illness and death.  Why must there be pain to learn?  Why must everyone experience sadness? But that is the way it is, the best parent cannot prevent any of those things.  I think that is how it is with the world development.  For centuries most people couldn't read.  Vaccines were  only invented 70 years ago.   None of this proves God doesn't exist.  It means we are the two year old child who is yet to understand and yet even as adults (religious or atheist alike) there are still many things beyond our understanding.

3.  I said as plainly as I know how more than once there are hundreds of think tanks and opinion pieces written every day. You can find someone who said almost anything you want AFTER the fact. I've also said that I do not remember the opinion polls but they were from US News, not Rush Limbaugh.  I said I will research PNAC. what do you want?

I have no idea why GWB does what he does, I'm sure you never ever ever heard me defend him, since I can't stand him either.

I also say I do understand about preachers spewing hate (which you did not put in quotes!) but I mention same sex marriage and the other stats about divorce etc. not to dispute you but to agree religion's role is diminishing.  You don't see that, you mention only GWB.

Your last point about Asia, where did I say it was "just Muslims?"  I thought this post was about the Mosque at Ground zero which means Muslims…..

You mention slavery was justified by the Bible.  Yes it was, but tell the whole story.  Slavery was practiced all over the world for most of the world's existence.  And in many parts of the world it still is, albeit sometimes illegally.  That doesn't make it right, but people are a product of their times.  And as I mentioned on another thread with you I think - people couldn't  choose between being a slave and getting a job at the corner Walmart!  That option wasn't there. People evolved.  Being a serf in medieval Europe was essentially being a slave.  Working for script and not cash in 18th century America was essentially being a slave.  African countries (ie African people) were the slave sellers, the Hutus murdered the Tustsi by the hundreds etc. etc. etc.  and yet when anything ever comes up about the African continent it is only White Europeans who are the villains.  ONLY them.

Perhaps the US did have a hand in 9/11, obviously we'll never know for sure. But for you to completely ignore what I said - anything other than proof is conjecture - makes discussion meaningless.  There are people who said the USA didn't really land on the moon. And on it goes.  I also clearly said I didn't recall what the polls said, that was a made up example - and you bring it into the discussion as if it were fact.

But I must say this - we have a huge divorce rate and unwed birth rate.  I would say based on that plenty of people in the USA ignore religion completely or it is a social activity only, not a guide to living one's life.  If GWB wore religion on his sleeve, it was to get elected.  To appeal to enough of that segment of people who VOTE.  Reagan promised a lot of things to the religious crowd too and delivered zero.

I do see that preachers that spew hate influence crimes, but oddly things are slowly getting better. We have SSM in several states and civil unions in others.  (Just 20 years ago, that it would occur was positively fantasy land/unthinkable and yet we have it)  Social change is like that.  No one is ever on board 100%.

Actually, I have gone to church my whole life and I never heard anything about homosexuality in the Catholic church on Sunday!  There is an encyclical by one of the Popes in the last 20 years that says, believe it or not, homosexuals are persons of sacred worth.  Yes, it continues on by saying we must be celibate and it is morally disordered.  But the words 'we are evil" aren't there.  When I was much younger and went to confession about it I was treated with great compassion. (now I laugh about it and would NEVER go to confession about my sexuality)  Yes, that is only my story, but it is the truth.

If you want to keep going tit for tat, we can - I delivered typewriters to this fundy church and they had a big sign about "outreach".  I asked one of the women working there - the church was right next to Dearborn.  She said many Muslim women came there because their husbands would beat them when pregnant to lose the baby if the ultrasound showed it was a girl.  They wanted boy babies.  How often do you think this happens with Christian marriages?

Raphjd - I said some Muslims and then in parentheses said (I Stress some) go back, it is not edited for today and yet you come back and say I said ALL Muslims.

It is not official Catholic, Lutheran or any mainstream Christian church policy to bomb people or sanction terrorism.  I specifically said several times that I exempted abortion clinic bombers and went further to say they are the lunatic fringe.  Find ONE Catholic school that preaches hatred for everything non Catholic, or one western democracy where the official policy is the annihiliation of a country such as Israel and I'll eat my words. This removal of Israel from the map is however, the official policy or was until very recently of many Middle Eastern countries WITH the support of the vast majority of the populace and virtually all their religious leaders.  Nothing in the west comes close to this.  Actually though, I dont' have to eat my words, because I've asked for information and correction.

Why am I "desperate.."?  I'm not. Instead of so many examples, I should just say plainly that I don't think Christianity compares to Islam.  Does this mean I think the USA is blameless? No, I've read The Shock Doctrine and Confession of an Economic Hitman.  By all means lay the blame where it belongs.  Still I think most people would prefer to live in a western style democracy than a Muslim theocracy given a choice.  Although I could be wrong.  Many Russians supposedly long for the days of the communist state where they didn't have to think or plan or decide.  The Pope doesn't need to apologize for anything that wasn't done in the name of the Catholic church and I said so plainly.  Frankly, I'm not sure apologizing for things that happened 500 years ago does a lot of good but it may be a "nice" thing to do if sincere.  My ancestors didn't own slaves, for example but if they did, should I apologize?  Economically, I make less than half of what many Blacks (and southern Whites) make working in auto plants and many many of them came up from the south.  This is not to say slavery has no legacy, but it sure didn't impact everyone equally.  All Whites are not rich simply by virtue of being White and all Blacks are not poor even with slave background.

Whatever Bush or Clinton or FDR did, they did as political acts which have little or nothing to do with religion.  Certainly they were not acting on behalf of any specific Church and that is my main point.  There are a million think tanks and opinions in a modern free society as large as the USA and if one wants to dig around AFTER the fact, one can always find a group that said this or that.  Most scientists said in the 50's that nuclear power would produce electricity so cheaply it wouldn't even be metered. Oh if that had only come to pass.  I don't know anything about the PNAC - if it is some sinister force that had a great impact on our government then I've got something to research.  On the other hand, people have discussions all the time of what it would take to change this or that in society.  That hardly means they are planning it.  Some of the very best scenarios that seem oh so logical turn out to be complete bunk, no matter how good they sound on paper.  (and yet despite spending untold hundreds of billions, we haven't taken over Iraq, have we?)  This does not mean that I'm naive or unaware that the media is in cahoots with politicians or he who pays the piper calls the tune. But if we're going to argue or discuss, please at least use what I actually wrote.

A hillbilly goes to his doctor for pretty severe constipation - and the doctor gives him some suppositories. The man returns to the office a few days later and says he is still constipated. The doctor asks if he is taking the suppositories. "Of course I'm taking them" the man booms back "what do you think I'm doing, shoving them up my ass?"

John invited his mother over for dinner. During the meal, his mother couldn't help noticing how handsome John's roommate was. She had long been suspicious of Johns' sexual orientation and this only made her more curious.

Over the course of the evening, while watching the two interact, she started to wonder if there was more between John and the roommate than met the eye.

Reading his mom's thoughts, John volunteered, "I know what you must be thinking, but I assure you, Mark and I are just roommates."

About a week later, Mark came to John and said, "Ever since your mother came to dinner, I've been unable to find the beautiful silver gravy ladle. You don't suppose she took it, do you?"

John said, "Well, I doubt it, but I'll write her a letter just to be sure." So he sat down and wrote: "Dear Mother, I'm not saying you 'did' take a gravy ladle from my house, and I'm not saying you 'did not' take a gravy ladle. But the fact remains that one has been missing ever since you were here for dinner."

Several days later, John received a letter from his mother which read: "Dear Son, I'm not saying that you 'do' sleep with Mark, and I'm not saying that you 'do not' sleep with Mark. But the fact remains that if he was sleeping in his own bed, he would have found the gravy ladle by now. Love, Mom"

I didn't know (and doubt) that Ted Kaczynski or the guy the bombed the Federal building in Kansas city were religious.  I don't think they were.  They happened to be Christian only by birth - because that is how their parents baptized them.  I don't think they went to Church.  Nor were they acting on orders from a Priest in the way some (and I stress SOME) Muslims respond to their Imams and Ayatollahs.  It is well documented as in the case of your religious schools that some Mosques are headquarters for cells.  Yeah, Falwell (long dead now) and Robertson spew hate - but I again,  didn't know any of the homegrown US terrorists justified their actions by religion except abortion clinic bombers)  Actually the Pope did condemn violence done in the name of God 11/11/2010.   I think it is unreasonable to expect him to condemn everything since abortion clinic bombers and lots of others are not acting in the name of the Catholic Church.  Many crazy people do things "in the name of God" or voices in their head but I don't think even Pat Robertson said go bomb an abortion clinic.  (and yes he is hateful and pretty nutty too)  Further I do not recall any mass demonstrations (by Christians) in the USA calling Iran, Iraq or the middle east the great satan or devils.  Abortion clinic bombers seem to be isolated nutcases and claim they are doing God's will - again, they are not acting on behalf of a larger religious organization.  If I'm wrong, let me know.

If you've ever read about partial birth abortions, it is a gruesome procedure, as are abortions in general. While I would never ever ever ever condone harming a doctor or bombing a clinic, I think killing innocent babies is absolutely disgusting too and it is easy to see why feelings run high on such a topic.  Just so you know that I'm not a religious nut, I did take a lot of pre-med classes in college and very early in pregnancy, the fetus has a heart beat, brain waves and at just 10 weeks, the feet and toes are fully formed.  Further, in vitro surgeries etc. are happening earlier and earlier so it is extremely difficult for me to understand how the law defines "baby" as only being outside the womb.

I can't think of the polls right now, but I get several major magazines (US News, The Week) but it is crazy stuff like 60% of Iraqis think the world trade center bombings were done by Americans!

Noughty - do you have a sheet of paper and tape?  Cut the paper to be twice what the dimensions of the envelope in the diagram and fold in half, tape on all three open sides…...proceed.....

Very true Mr. Mazda - at the risk of sounding like an old fart, but I'm serious - I used to drive every day all day delivering stuff when I first started working.  I didn't see in one full weekall the terrible maneuvers and rudeness that one can see today in about an hour on the road.  Part of it is more cars in less space, but I think that people are just far less considerate than they used to be.  There is no other explanation.

The father catches his son masturbating and expresses his deep disappointment - "son, I have always been so proud of you. You never cause any trouble, you're good in sports and do your homework, never talk back to your mom etc. Don't you know you can go blind jacking off?" The son, still wanting to please his father, says "ok, I'll try to cut back, but can I just do it until I need glasses?"