Germany forced to bail out bankrupt countries like Spain and Greece
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I am not comparing paper routes to working in factories.
I simply said I started working at 7yo doing a paper route. I didn't even mention my other job of cutting peoples' grass. Yeah, I eventually went on to work in factories and other jobs while in school.
So there is still no justification for the Southern European countries to retire so much earlier than the rest of the west.
Also, who created the debt problems in the SE countries?! YEP, it was the people that participated in and benefitted from the grey economies. If you guys lived realistically and paid your taxes, like the rest of the west, then your countries wouldn't be hurting so much.
Everywhere in the world, corporations are avoiding paying taxes, but only the countries with massive grey economies are failing.
If the people of Greece (and others) paid their taxes and didn't abuse the system, I wouldn't have to pay higher taxes to bail them out. I agree with a previous poster. We should just let all the failing countries go under, since they resent our help anyway.
It is pretty unfair to include the entire population of one country to the few powerful and rich divas who doesn't pay their taxes.
I am paying my taxes, my parents did, my best friends and their relatives paid their share. Hell, my mother was paying her taxes and now she doesn't even have insurance. Yes, we do have high taxes also so you can enjoy the fact that you do not have the exclusivity.
It is also pretty unfair to consider all these people guilty. If we are talking about true justice then all the goverments of all the countries of the world should target those few selected ''sinners''.
We didn't resent any help. We resented the extremely heavy and unfair price that came along with it. -
If the people of Greece (and others) paid their taxes and didn't abuse the system, I wouldn't have to pay higher taxes to bail them out. I agree with a previous poster. We should just let all the failing countries go under, since they resent our help anyway.
The resentment is not towards the people, it's towards the fact that instead of charging and agreeing on a low interest tax, THERE IS A HUGE EXPLOITATION on it, on the interest tax of a national debt that might keep a country subservient… the resentment is with the governments.
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Well we will see in the next months if Greece can actually turn around, make good on their promises and institute real change. Because right now it is just war with words from Syriza, we haven't actually seen results and only time will tell if he is really that good.
The only thing this has accomplished successfully is put mistrust on both parties (Europe and Greece).
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Do you think this will weaken the Euro currency or may bring economic problems in Germany?
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This is all about bailing about the banks. No banks or bankers (rhymes with wanker) have received any punishment for their quasi-criminal activities.
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Do you think this will weaken the Euro currency or may bring economic problems in Germany?
The Euro was weakened by the oil price fall, for what the markets say, the greece decision actually made the euro stronger, now it's all about time as someone said… And Germany caused all it's problems really their stability is created artificially, no salary raises, no fixing ruined infrastructures, no spend Merkel, no buy anything from the outside, export export export, guess what if there is noone to buy german things because they don't buy anything back, then their products won't get bought and they won't get revenue... they finance themselves at 0% interest tax when they do not need that but force countries that need that to pay debts to pay them with a huge interest, it's all about keeping banking and whatever afloat... some countries were porrly managed for ages, but this is happening now because of the banking collapse.
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It is pretty unfair to include the entire population of one country to the few powerful and rich divas who doesn't pay their taxes.
I am paying my taxes, my parents did, my best friends and their relatives paid their share. Hell, my mother was paying her taxes and now she doesn't even have insurance. Yes, we do have high taxes also so you can enjoy the fact that you do not have the exclusivity.
It is also pretty unfair to consider all these people guilty. If we are talking about true justice then all the goverments of all the countries of the world should target those few selected ''sinners''.
We didn't resent any help. We resented the extremely heavy and unfair price that came along with it.It's not just the rich in Greece that aren't paying ALL of the taxes they are supposed to.
A big part of the agreement to extend the bailout was that your (Greece's) new government would do more to stamp out the grey (black market) economies.
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Nice discussion here.
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It is pretty unfair to include the entire population of one country to the few powerful and rich divas who doesn't pay their taxes.
I am paying my taxes, my parents did, my best friends and their relatives paid their share. Hell, my mother was paying her taxes and now she doesn't even have insurance. Yes, we do have high taxes also so you can enjoy the fact that you do not have the exclusivity.
It is also pretty unfair to consider all these people guilty. If we are talking about true justice then all the goverments of all the countries of the world should target those few selected ''sinners''.
We didn't resent any help. We resented the extremely heavy and unfair price that came along with it.It's not just the rich in Greece that aren't paying ALL of the taxes they are supposed to.
A big part of the agreement to extend the bailout was that your (Greece's) new government would do more to stamp out the grey (black market) economies.
The lower classes are paying their taxes. I am living in Greece so you would allow me to know better.
And for those taxes that are not payed as they should have… well, i am not an economist expert but it is quite hard to pay any kind of obligation if there is any kind of income.
There is a lot of unemploynment and these guys cannot pay their obligations since they do not have any kind of income to do so.
The only thing that i will agree with your quote is the black market thing which indeed is a field that requires more extensive caring. -
Bueeeeeeeeenos días a todos.
Me presento rápidamente, mi nombre es José, soy ESPAÑOL y tengo 35 años.
Leyendo un poco por encima algunos post anteriores estoy, francamente preocupado. Que verdaderamente haya gente que se cree lo que le cuentan sus telediarios es muy muy triste. Que a día de hoy con la información que disponemos tengamos a "vecinos" diciendo que no se pagan impuestos, que nos jubilamos pronto y todo lo leído anteriormente es para que se lo hagan mirar. Es como si yo dijera que el problema de estar donde estamos es por culpa de hacer caso a Europa, que en muchos casos es cierto, pero claro hablar de Europa es una utopía. ¿Que es Europa?. Cuando me respondáis a esa pregunta seguimos con el debate, que verdaderamente me parece bueno y apasionante para todos. El debatir y el aprender siempre es bueno.Por cierto, para los que se las dan de salvadores me atrevo a daros un consejo que nosotros no hicimos. No hagáis caso de lo que os cuentan vuestros políticos y vuestros telediarios (noticias) y empezaros a preocuparos por vuestros planes de pensiones, que en muchísimos casos están invertidos en bancos y empresas Españolas, por si no lo sabíais.
Mi más sincero reconocimiento y animo para la compañera que escribe por aquí y es Griega, que seguramente ella entienda lo que estoy diciendo.
Un placer hablar con vosotr@s con el respeto que todos nos merecemos.
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Que?
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Using the black market (major part of the grey economy), then you are NOT paying all of your taxes.
According to GreekReporter.com, Greece loses 43.2 Billion Euros a year in unpaid taxes from sales and work. That's admittedly a low estimate by VISA Card who did the study.
The black market in Greece is nothing new.
According to Wikipedia, in 2005 (before the global economic crisis), tax evasion was at 49%. In 2009, tax evasion by the self employed alone was 31% of the national budget deficit. The black market for that year (2009) was worth 25% of Greece's entire GDP.
As we see, there is the claim that the lower classes (economically) are paying all their taxes, but with the admission that they aren't paying their taxes because they can't afford too. You can't have it both ways.
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Using the black market (major part of the grey economy), then you are NOT paying all of your taxes.
According to GreekReporter.com, Greece loses 43.2 Billion Euros a year in unpaid taxes from sales and work. That's admittedly a low estimate by VISA Card who did the study.
The black market in Greece is nothing new.
According to Wikipedia, in 2005 (before the global economic crisis), tax evasion was at 49%. In 2009, tax evasion by the self employed alone was 31% of the national budget deficit. The black market for that year (2009) was worth 25% of Greece's entire GDP.
As we see, there is the claim that the lower classes (economically) are paying all their taxes, but with the admission that they aren't paying their taxes because they can't afford too. You can't have it both ways.
What i meant is that the part of the lower class and have the means are indeed paying their taxes.
I remember stating that there is a great part of Greeks that are unemployed and do not have any income. So it is logical that they are unable to pay their obligations. -
How can there be 49% tax evasion in 2005, but the lower classes are paying their taxes?
Remember, the lower economic classes are the "other 95%". That means the 44% of the tax evasion, in 2005 before the global economic collapse, came from the lower economic classes in Greece. This is based on the claims that the top 5% never pay any taxes, which is unlikely.
Tax evasion in Greece has a long history. During the Ottoman Empire, it was considered "patriotic" to not pay your taxes.
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I really like how people here talk about Greece's problems based on what they've seen reported on their tvs. It's quite funny compared to actually living the situation. But since the discussion went towards tax evasion, lets clear something out.
Greece has had a corrupt political system even before it became a state. Politicians don't get corrupted by themselves of course, there are many companies, businessmen and contractors kind enough to help them(with many of them located in the noble tax-paying north). So in the end, everything the state buys turns out to cost more that it actually should, from weapon systems that get delivered faulty and no one dares to ask any questions, to public roads costing 6 times what they should. (And we are not even counting the income loss from tax laws that the big players can directly influence)
Now, as a citizen you are supposed to pay your taxes and in return the greek state is supposed to provide you education, health and public infrastructure but because of all the money grubbing these three sectors were and are crumbling. You have to pay for extra tutoring if you want a dissent education for your child, you have to pay the doctors or a private clinic if you are in need of something that's less than an absolute life-threatening emergency and you also have to compensate in time and money for the bad public infrastructure.
So if you have to live in Greece for more than a couple of years you are faced with a moral dilemma: should I pay for health, education and infrastructure that the state's supposed to provide me by myself or should I be a good citizen and pay all of my taxes? Because you can't do both-it's impossible-you won't even survive. And you choose to survive.
And the question of course is, why don't people get rid of that corrupt system? Easier said than done. Politicians are smart enough to give people a few bones(remember the age limits?) and change almost always comes from something bad enough to move you out of your seat(like a bankruptcy?).
And the EU's part in all this? As it was later revealed, the big european governments knew that Greece was not prepared to enter the eurozone but for their own reasons they encouraged or at least did not react to it. And after the situation blew in our faces, instead of saying "get your shit together and then come play with us again", they were happy to collaborate with the same corrupt political system that caused the situation and give them more money under the condition that they will use it only to pay back loans (in effect bailing out french and german banks and buying time to set up various mechanisms in eurozone). Now the risk has moved from the banks' hands to the people of Europe and Greece has the same chance of defaulting as in the beginning of the crisis, if not more.
And so we(the people of Europe) are left arguing on internet porn forums. I mean, lol
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How can there be 49% tax evasion in 2005, but the lower classes are paying their taxes?
Remember, the lower economic classes are the "other 95%". That means the 44% of the tax evasion, in 2005 before the global economic collapse, came from the lower economic classes in Greece. This is based on the claims that the top 5% never pay any taxes, which is unlikely.
Tax evasion in Greece has a long history. During the Ottoman Empire, it was considered "patriotic" to not pay your taxes.
As i said, there is great unemploynment in Greece.
Plus, it is one thing to read facts from a web site.
Experiencing it in first hand, however, is quite another. -
**_Germany opposes many solutions adamantly..
I'm afraid that without having a solution for intra-EMU distortions the EU monetary union will collapse sooner or later!
:cry2:_**
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Dependera del gobierno griego que este "cheque" vaya destinado realmente a su fin. Ayudar a las pequeñas empresas para la contratación de gente joven.
http://www.abc.es/internacional/20150320/abci-ayuda-2000-millones-euros-201503201443.html
Personalmente me parece lo más correcto por parte de la UE y ahora que sean los ciudadanos Griegos quienes exijan que esos fondos se gastan bien
Depend on the Greek government that this "check" will really meant to end. Helping small businesses for hiring young people.
Personally I think the right thing by the EU and now that the Greeks are citizens who demand that those funds are well spent
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Every country's government pays way too much for the stuff it buys. The US infamously bought $12,000 toilet seats and £32,000 hammers back in the 1980s, which at any hardware store would have cost less than $15. Haliburton is still screwing the US over on several contracts they have. The UK always gets screwed (purposely it seems) whenever they had a contract with outside companies, especially in construction.
NO government is without it's base of corruption.
You don't have to live in Greece to see where the problems are coming from; mass tax evasion, black market, early retirement, extremely generous work benefits, etc, etc.
Now, as a citizen you are supposed to pay your taxes and in return the greek state is supposed to provide you education, health and public infrastructure but because of all the money grubbing these three sectors were and are crumbling. You have to pay for extra tutoring if you want a dissent education for your child, you have to pay the doctors or a private clinic if you are in need of something that's less than an absolute life-threatening emergency and you also have to compensate in time and money for the bad public infrastructure.
The UK has the same problems and it's been made worse by having to bailout various countries.
It pisses me off that my taxes have gone up, as has the retirement age, while government services are being slashed.
Let's compare Greece's black market (in 2009 figures) with Scotland's school budget (2012/13). Greece's black market cost their country 43.2 Billion Euros per year (very low estimate; see earlier post) and Scotland spends £2.4 Billion a year on schools. Based on population, cost of living, currency conversion and other factors, you can say that Greece's black market tax loss is just shy of 14 times it's budget for school. Of course that doesn't cover the other forms of tax evasion.
Your government's budget is in serious trouble when 25% of it's GDP tax revenue is lost to the black market. Then you need to add in all the other forms of tax evasion and the problem just grows and grows.
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It's true that probity standards in Greece are fairly low. But really if Google and other multinationals were taxed and tax minimisation scaled back, then the tax situation would be fine. The UK has slashed its real taxation of the high end earners significantly over the last 3 decades. In any case, Scotland is substantially subsidized by England, which Scottish Nationalists have only partially forgotten… (thus enabling a Conservative victory at the general election...)
Also, Greece would have been better off not to receive a cent, or barely anything, from the bailouts and avoid austerity. Bankruptcy was the solution, years ago...now there have been years of stagnation and degradation with nothing to show.
