Germany forced to bail out bankrupt countries like Spain and Greece
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I'll had that the overlook on the paralel economics and the corruption is startling, the people should not been paying or called lazy for the bad management… this countries are under a strict policial circle, the political class knows that the people hates them.
As I previously said, I don't really know much about Spain's situation. HOWEVER, Greece's situation has been well documented in UK news documentary shows (Panorama, Dispatches, etc).
The southern European countries that are having a hard time now had extremely early retirement ages. Even after severe reforms, they still retire 4 years earlier than the rest of Europe.
They also had grey economies through tax avoidance on goods and services.
Job related benefits were outrageous, compared to the rest of Europe.
Despite pretty decent economic growth (prior to the global economic meltdown), the national debt was skyrocketing. The year before the global economic meltdown, the Greek national debt was 105% of their GDP. Their GDP rose 4.3% but their national debt rose 7% up until the global economic meltdown.
Bailing out other countries has meant higher taxes and service cuts for the countries that had to do the bailing out, yet the countries that got bailed out are angry with those that saved them.
All of these things are direct benefits of the people of these countries. This is why you won't see much pity from the people in the rest of Europe.
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So what?
This thread is very insulting because the people of BOTH Spain and Greece have been making many sacrifices in order to pay all these taxes and cuts that Troika has forced us.
I get it, you do not like Greece, and possibly you do not like Spain, as well but everyone has acknowledged that both of these countries have made whatever it is humanly (and not) possible in order to recover and this is something that even the politicians of Germany have acknowledged.
I really want a mod to step in and lock this thread. It is downlooking a very sensitive matter of my country and other crisis stricken countries and it is handled in a very disrespectful manner.Sorry to say that, but some "new" posters here in the forums have a strange way to communicate with the GTru - users. An enormous amount of spam, nonsense and absolut useless stuff is posted and quoted, just to gain some seed points - and as if this wouldn't be enough, they celebrate themselfs by completely ignoring netiquette and judge about all and everything, without thinking about the consequences.
YES, Minerboh80 - you are right, there should be a mod to take care of such posts and I definitely would like to donate into an I-poste-only-because-I-want-to-grab-seedpoints-pot, to get rid of these posts, but unfortunately this might never happen, because it seems to be funny for some posters to insult people and it seems to be as well funny for some readers. :afr2:
Well… juhuuuuuu... you won! It absolutely does not amuse me anymore to read stuff here in the GTru - forums. I will take a break for a while and I will visit the forums again in a few weeks, to see if there might be any changes.
![😕](https://community.gaytorrent.ru/assets/plugins/nodebb-plugin-emoji/emoji/apple/1f615.png?v=hvqg2qn0nb4 ":-\")
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Sorry to say that, but some "new" posters here in the forums have a strange way to communicate with the GTru - users. An enormous amount of spam, nonsense and absolut useless stuff is posted and quoted, just to gain some seed points - and as if this wouldn't be enough, they celebrate themselfs by completely ignoring netiquette and judge about all and everything, without thinking about the consequences.
YES, Minerboh80 - you are right, there should be a mod to take care of such posts and I definitely would like to donate into an I-poste-only-because-I-want-to-grab-seedpoints-pot, to get rid of these posts, but unfortunately this might never happen, because it seems to be funny for some posters to insult people and it seems to be as well funny for some readers. :afr2:
This posts are popular because people find them mostly ignorant and feel the need to explain somethings, however i already felt that and feel this is mostly on the bound of a faux pas like trolling.
As I previously said, I don't really know much about Spain's situation. HOWEVER, Greece's situation has been well documented in UK news documentary shows (Panorama, Dispatches, etc).
The southern European countries that are having a hard time now had extremely early retirement ages. Even after severe reforms, they still retire 4 years earlier than the rest of Europe.
They also had grey economies through tax avoidance on goods and services.
Job related benefits were outrageous, compared to the rest of Europe.
Despite pretty decent economic growth (prior to the global economic meltdown), the national debt was skyrocketing. The year before the global economic meltdown, the Greek national debt was 105% of their GDP. Their GDP rose 4.3% but their national debt rose 7% up until the global economic meltdown.
Bailing out other countries has meant higher taxes and service cuts for the countries that had to do the bailing out, yet the countries that got bailed out are angry with those that saved them.
All of these things are direct benefits of the people of these countries. This is why you won't see much pity from the people in the rest of Europe.
I do understand your point let that be clear, but when you have an ageing population and you extend the reform age, it also means there will be no jobs for the youth, which means that there will be no people to pay those ageing people reforms… so do you understand how that snowball and backfires on some specific countries? (not greece case they were crazy)
This countries have issues with the ones bailing them out because in part it was their fault too, not those particular ones sometimes but the whole UE mess, and what some countries have said and refer to them as PIGS, EVEN THO these PIGS helped bail some of those countries out. If you are humiliated when you just helped someone that is humiliating you, how do you see that person? Also The rating agencies mess? Really, this crisis was a circus, everyone knew it was bound to happen, noone did a thing until it exploded, and that is the usual process in the UE.
BUT yeah you've got it right it was some of those countries fault too for allowing the grey economy, it would take a revolution, most likely not like Ukraine, but yes ...
I see lots of people simplefying this matter, it means that in some of these countries people are in the streets, because thereare no jobs, they lost their houses, they lost their medical care... so never simplefy what might be a tragedy for others.
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I'll had that the overlook on the paralel economics and the corruption is startling, the people should not been paying or called lazy for the bad management… this countries are under a strict policial circle, the political class knows that the people hates them.
As I previously said, I don't really know much about Spain's situation. HOWEVER, Greece's situation has been well documented in UK news documentary shows (Panorama, Dispatches, etc).
The southern European countries that are having a hard time now had extremely early retirement ages. Even after severe reforms, they still retire 4 years earlier than the rest of Europe.
They also had grey economies through tax avoidance on goods and services.
Job related benefits were outrageous, compared to the rest of Europe.
Despite pretty decent economic growth (prior to the global economic meltdown), the national debt was skyrocketing. The year before the global economic meltdown, the Greek national debt was 105% of their GDP. Their GDP rose 4.3% but their national debt rose 7% up until the global economic meltdown.
Bailing out other countries has meant higher taxes and service cuts for the countries that had to do the bailing out, yet the countries that got bailed out are angry with those that saved them.
All of these things are direct benefits of the people of these countries. This is why you won't see much pity from the people in the rest of Europe.
This is why I posted in previous why Swedes, Danes and Norwegian are ok with high taxes. Nobody wants to give out a free lunch. There is something to be said for the countries that have been doing a decent job keeping their affairs in order and the people who have been supporting via the tax structure. Those countries would be even worse than they are now if nobody bailed them out, but you cannot punish the citizens because the people in charge are corrupt. That's why they were bailed out. When the American government bailed out the banks, Americans were furious, but the economy would have been in an even worse condition had they not done so. They couldn't punish the hard working Americans for the transgressions of absconding banks.
As the points forum posts, I wouldn't care if they removed it. In fact, I am for removing it, if it pleases the staff. I just like the banter of the forums. :love:
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I'll had that the overlook on the paralel economics and the corruption is startling, the people should not been paying or called lazy for the bad management… this countries are under a strict policial circle, the political class knows that the people hates them.
As I previously said, I don't really know much about Spain's situation. HOWEVER, Greece's situation has been well documented in UK news documentary shows (Panorama, Dispatches, etc).
The southern European countries that are having a hard time now had extremely early retirement ages. Even after severe reforms, they still retire 4 years earlier than the rest of Europe.
They also had grey economies through tax avoidance on goods and services.
Job related benefits were outrageous, compared to the rest of Europe.
Despite pretty decent economic growth (prior to the global economic meltdown), the national debt was skyrocketing. The year before the global economic meltdown, the Greek national debt was 105% of their GDP. Their GDP rose 4.3% but their national debt rose 7% up until the global economic meltdown.
Bailing out other countries has meant higher taxes and service cuts for the countries that had to do the bailing out, yet the countries that got bailed out are angry with those that saved them.
All of these things are direct benefits of the people of these countries. This is why you won't see much pity from the people in the rest of Europe.
What are you stating is true but that is for the old generation of greeks.
The current generation, the one I live, has to face the sins of the older generation in every conceivable way.
I am a nurse and our health system suffers from the lack of financial resources, we are working overtime which we are not paid. The stuff also suffers from the lack of personell. Weare paying our taxes, the low citizens that is, we are paying our bills. And let's not touch the subject of unemployment. Many of us have degrees and diplomas only to decorate the walls of our houses.
For this generation of greeks, a small amount of respect must be shown.
We are trying and i think it is pretty unfair to blame this generation for the sins of the old. -
First, no one is required to give you anything. You don't demand respect, you earn respect. It is not Germany's fault that the Grecian politicians are corrupt and don't seem to care about their constituents as you say. All of the reasons that you mention are nobody else's fault. This still doesn't change the fact that other Europeans countries should not have to foot Greece's debt bill. It is as raphjd said. Those European nations who were bailed out by Germany and the like should thank their lucky stars they decided to do so. That situation could have been entirely worse had they not done so.
@raphjd:As I previously said, I don't really know much about Spain's situation. HOWEVER, Greece's situation has been well documented in UK news documentary shows (Panorama, Dispatches, etc).
The southern European countries that are having a hard time now had extremely early retirement ages. Even after severe reforms, they still retire 4 years earlier than the rest of Europe.
They also had grey economies through tax avoidance on goods and services.
Job related benefits were outrageous, compared to the rest of Europe.
Despite pretty decent economic growth (prior to the global economic meltdown), the national debt was skyrocketing. The year before the global economic meltdown, the Greek national debt was 105% of their GDP. Their GDP rose 4.3% but their national debt rose 7% up until the global economic meltdown.
Bailing out other countries has meant higher taxes and service cuts for the countries that had to do the bailing out, yet the countries that got bailed out are angry with those that saved them.
All of these things are direct benefits of the people of these countries. This is why you won't see much pity from the people in the rest of Europe.
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First, no one is required to give you anything. You don't demand respect, you earn respect. It is not Germany's fault that the Grecian politicians are corrupt and don't seem to care about their constituents as you say. All of the reasons that you mention are nobody else's fault. This still doesn't change the fact that other Europeans countries should not have to foot Greece's debt bill. It is as raphjd said. Those European nations who were bailed out by Germany and the like should thank their lucky stars they decided to do so. That situation could have been entirely worse had they not done so.
@raphjd:As I previously said, I don't really know much about Spain's situation. HOWEVER, Greece's situation has been well documented in UK news documentary shows (Panorama, Dispatches, etc).
The southern European countries that are having a hard time now had extremely early retirement ages. Even after severe reforms, they still retire 4 years earlier than the rest of Europe.
They also had grey economies through tax avoidance on goods and services.
Job related benefits were outrageous, compared to the rest of Europe.
Despite pretty decent economic growth (prior to the global economic meltdown), the national debt was skyrocketing. The year before the global economic meltdown, the Greek national debt was 105% of their GDP. Their GDP rose 4.3% but their national debt rose 7% up until the global economic meltdown.
Bailing out other countries has meant higher taxes and service cuts for the countries that had to do the bailing out, yet the countries that got bailed out are angry with those that saved them.
All of these things are direct benefits of the people of these countries. This is why you won't see much pity from the people in the rest of Europe.
Oh, please, my ''dear'' one. Don't be so obvious.
I got the point that you don't like Greece.
The greeks have earned the right for some respect because they are trying to correct the mistakes of the past.
Even Merkell has admitted that. She said it herself.
Now, if you do not respect the fact that we are trying, then you are not anymore ''right'' than the ones you try to downgrade.
I didn't ''demand'' anything, i simply asked. There is a major difference between asking and demand. You can't see it?
How about you that you? You are demading from the rest of the users to have a negative point of view for poor countries, especially Greece.
Let me tell you, whatever you believe it or not, that not all Greeks are corrupted or lazy or money shacking leeches that you try so desperately to pass us by.
These countries decided to show th better part of themselves when they decided to help us, Greece helped many times, in WW2, in humanitarian crises and others.
Tell me, nordicblue, what does make you when you are trying to downgrade the efforts all the greek citizens have made these past years? -
Those European nations who were bailed out by Germany and the like should thank their lucky stars they decided to do so. That situation could have been entirely worse had they not done so.
:haha: Do you think it would be without consequence that those enter in bankrupt? Ever heard of domino effect… the whole EU would have collapsed specially with Italy and France involved... if you get your buyers without money they can't buy you stuff so you lose money... if you get the guys who make your clothes and technology bankrupt, you are not getting that either... if you take the ones who are producing most of your food... Learn a bit about the complexity of the issue please... the EU bailed because it had too also, luck had nothing to do on the matter.
Plus in our case we are so thankful that you make us pay almost the double amout we owned just in interests, while germany can get money at 0% tax...
This is not saying that people should not be thankful, but get down of your high horse this is business it helps all the interested.
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Germany, Norway and The UK are the only reason why most of Europe survives. Poorer countries like Turkey, Greece, Italy, Spain, and France joined to strengthen their economies. Germany, Norway and the UK are now the richest countries in the Eurozone. Greece is 43rd, Italy is 8th, France is 6th, Spain is 44th and Turkey isn't worth mentioning although I just did. Norway has a thriving oil industry, cobalt, iron ore and many natural resources, along with being the best place to incorporate. I think those countries only have themselves to blame. :cry2:
What? Norway is not even a member of the European Union. I think you need to check your sources and stop making up rankings:
! 4 Germany 3,635,959
5 France 2,807,306
6 United Kingdom 2,523,216
9 Italy 2,071,955
13 Spain 1,358,687
18 Turkey 819,990
25 Norway 512,581
42 Greece 241,796http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2014/02/weodata/index.aspx
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Here are two different sources. Greece is 43rd from the World Bank. Even with some wiggle room maybe upper 30s.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2195.html
http://databank.worldbank.org/data/download/GDP.pdfGovernment Credit Rating
| Country | S&P | | Moody’s | | Fitch | | Score |
| Canada | AAA | Stable | Aaa | stable | AAA | 98 |
| Denmark | AAA | Stable | Aaa | stable | AAA | 98 |
| Finland | AA+ | Stable | Aaa | stable | AAA | 98 |
| Germany | AAA | Stable | Aaa | stable | AAA | 99 |
| Greece | B | Stable | Caa1 | stable | B | 20 |
| Liechtenstein | AAA | Stable | Aaa | stable | AAA | 100 |
| Netherlands | AA | Stable | Aaa | stable | AA | 98 |
| Norway | AAA | Stable | Aaa | stable | AAA | 98 |
| Poland | A- | Stable | A2 | stable | A- | 69 |
| Spain | BBB | Stable | Baa2 | stable | BBB+ | 60 |
| Sweden | AAA | Stable | Aaa | stable | AAA | 99 |
| Switzerland | AAA | Stable | Aaa | stable | AAA | 100 |
| United Kingdom | AAA | Stable | AA1 | stable | AA+ | 97 |
| United States | AA+ | Stable | Aaa | stable | AAA | 97 |http://www.tradingeconomics.com/country-list/rating
Government Debt to GDP
Denmark 44.50%
Germany 76.90%
Greece 174.50%
Norway 29.52%
Spain 92.10%
Sweden 40.60%
Euro area 90.90%
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/country-list/government-debt-to-gdpRetirement Age
Norway has the oldest retirement age at 67
United States 66, has been there forever
Sweden 65
Denmark 65
Germany 65
Greece 65, was almost the lowest at 57 before the raise
Euro area 64.32
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/country-list/retirement-age-men -
The retirement age in the UK is currently 67 for me, but it's expected to rise to 71 when I retire in 20ish years.
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As I previously said, I don't really know much about Spain's situation. HOWEVER, Greece's situation has been well documented in UK news documentary shows (Panorama, Dispatches, etc).
The southern European countries that are having a hard time now had extremely early retirement ages. Even after severe reforms, they still retire 4 years earlier than the rest of Europe.
They also had grey economies through tax avoidance on goods and services.
Job related benefits were outrageous, compared to the rest of Europe.
Despite pretty decent economic growth (prior to the global economic meltdown), the national debt was skyrocketing. The year before the global economic meltdown, the Greek national debt was 105% of their GDP. Their GDP rose 4.3% but their national debt rose 7% up until the global economic meltdown.
Bailing out other countries has meant higher taxes and service cuts for the countries that had to do the bailing out, yet the countries that got bailed out are angry with those that saved them.
All of these things are direct benefits of the people of these countries. This is why you won't see much pity from the people in the rest of Europe.
I do understand your point let that be clear, but when you have an ageing population and you extend the reform age, it also means there will be no jobs for the youth, which means that there will be no people to pay those ageing people reforms… so do you understand how that snowball and backfires on some specific countries? (not greece case they were crazy)
This countries have issues with the ones bailing them out because in part it was their fault too, not those particular ones sometimes but the whole UE mess, and what some countries have said and refer to them as PIGS, EVEN THO these PIGS helped bail some of those countries out. If you are humiliated when you just helped someone that is humiliating you, how do you see that person? Also The rating agencies mess? Really, this crisis was a circus, everyone knew it was bound to happen, noone did a thing until it exploded, and that is the usual process in the UE.
BUT yeah you've got it right it was some of those countries fault too for allowing the grey economy, it would take a revolution, most likely not like Ukraine, but yes ...
I see lots of people simplefying this matter, it means that in some of these countries people are in the streets, because thereare no jobs, they lost their houses, they lost their medical care... so never simplefy what might be a tragedy for others.
How does a country fund it's state pension when people work as long as they are retired (based on average life expectancy)? That's unsustainable, to say the very least. The bailed out countries need to build their economies, not lower their retirement age to compensate.
I'm very anti EU, so you are preaching to the choir about them. HOWEVER, you can't lay all the blame on the EU. The grey economies had nothing to do with the EU.
I'm not against bailing others out, but I want you and other in those bailed out countries to understand that bailing you out hasn't been easy on us, when you complain about the bailout. On various forums, I've seen people in the bailed out countries getting nasty toward the people in the countries that bailed them out. THIS IS COMPLETELY WRONG.
My standard of living has crashed due to the UK bailing out other countries and constantly having to help top up the Euro.
What are you stating is true but that is for the old generation of greeks.
The current generation, the one I live, has to face the sins of the older generation in every conceivable way.
I am a nurse and our health system suffers from the lack of financial resources, we are working overtime which we are not paid. The stuff also suffers from the lack of personell. Weare paying our taxes, the low citizens that is, we are paying our bills. And let's not touch the subject of unemployment. Many of us have degrees and diplomas only to decorate the walls of our houses.
For this generation of greeks, a small amount of respect must be shown.
We are trying and i think it is pretty unfair to blame this generation for the sins of the old.My comments weren't blaming your generation, but were to show why we are where we are.
The working generation(s) is the one that always has to suffer for the sins of the previous generations. No country is unique in this.
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I'm not against bailing others out, but I want you and other in those bailed out countries to understand that bailing you out hasn't been easy on us, when you complain about the bailout. On various forums, I've seen people in the bailed out countries getting nasty toward the people in the countries that bailed them out. THIS IS COMPLETELY WRONG.
My standard of living has crashed due to the UK bailing out other countries and constantly having to help top up the Euro.
I understand and empathise with your points, you are completely right in what you are saying, let me just point where those worse reactions were coming from, imagine a country like portugal who was average and not at it's best when finland actually needed support some decades ago, we gave to them the support at our own cost (like you are doing now)… this time when we needed the first help they were the stronger opposition if you remenber, so it was coming from there too, and in the case of greece and germany it's the same, greece funded germany when it was broke, they never had to pay it back... so again conflict. Surely it did not became overly dramatic and was dealt with, again it's not a hate on the people but more on the institutions, in my particular case it's a clear see-how-this-idiots-don't-have-a-clue-about-what-they-are-doing specially the bank system... the country had to sold what actually gave it profit, to follow troika guidelines... that is no way to run or help a country in the long term. A bunch of shitty short term ways to get cash to pay up by empoverishment athat helped noone, surely it made people hate furthermore... if they actually managed instead of killing inner markets to make the jobs and companies stronger and more secure and destroy the grey economics and reduce the state fat, it all would change, surely a country like mine can't have what our politics get in salaries pensions and benefits neither the whole luxury car fleet and so on... did they cut that? NO THEY MULTIPLIED. Sorry we do get your point because we felt it also, but it's so frustating to have to basically wait to get most of our political class in jail.
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Could you tell me when exactly Greece bailed out Germany? I don't ever remeber Germany being broke, except after WWII, and even then the rest of Europe was in worse shape then they were. America and the UK funneled money through the rest of Europe. When has the UK ever need to be bailed out or the U.S. for that matter?
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We didn't had anything to do with helping Germany.
We did helped other countries.
http://greece.greekreporter.com/2014/08/08/greece-offers-humanitarian-aid-to-gaza-strip/ -
Lack of memory much huh… just check the news in the 70's and see how germany was doing... and where the mney came from to help it
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Possibly. I do remember other events though and i could mention them but out of respect to my fellow German users, i won't.
In this forum, i prefer to see the brighter aspects of communication with other people.
I refuse to use norticblue's slimy tactics. -
Possibly.
But out of respect to my fellow German users, i won't
I refuse to use norticblue's slimy tactics.Since when did listing facts become slimy? Everything I posted was a fact and is a fact corroborated by verifiable sources. Don't blame me for the current situation in the European Union. Euro tumbles even further to below $1.20, to end the day at $1.1963, £0.7817. :afr: :cry2:
Bloomberg - Euro Extends Slide on ECB Outlook
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2015-01-04/euro-extends-slide-as-japan-resumes-n-z-stocks-advance.html -
Ever since you practically rose your foot and stepped upon the efforts of my country to improve it's economy and you have showed openly your disgust toward Greece.
Whatever you like it, Greece is doing to fix the mistakes of the past, it's improved ever since the program first initiated and even Germany has admitted that.
Angela Merkel has expressed her acceptance for the so called grexit if the opposing political from our goverment party takes over (it is a party that has expressed their mind toward Merkel). As long as the Goverment stands, we are not going anywhere. -
The opposition party will always say that they can do better and will not disappoint you. Maybe, they are in this mess because the citizens actually believe the propaganda that is fed to them. Why should these people be any less corrupt? Angela Merkel would never denounce your government openly as that would be in poor taste and not politically beneficial to any Greeks living in Germany. Cubans wanted the U.S. to remove Batista from office, which they did with the Brigada and installed Castro and look what happened there. America was like, "oh Cuba, we are your friend", whilst only really overthrowing Batista because it suits them to do so. It is not a problem with Greece in particular, it is any government in Europe acting like an anchor on the growth of responsible countries, which at the current time is Greece, Cyprus and Spain to name a few.
