"Healthy at any size" vs C-19
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https://edition.cnn.com/2021/03/04/health/obesity-covid-death-rate-intl/index.html
Despite what we've been told for the last 15 years, being obese is not healthy.
While age is the main factor in hospitalizations for C-19, being overweight is a very close 2nd.
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@raphjd said in "Healthy at any size" vs C-19:
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/03/04/health/obesity-covid-death-rate-intl/index.html
Despite what we've been told for the last 15 years, being obese is not healthy.
While age is the main factor in hospitalizations for C-19, being overweight is a very close 2nd.
Thanks for the link. The story is a bit sloppy: The actual study linked COVID death rates with countries' overweight percentages, but then the article soon dwells on obesity. Being overweight and being obese refer to two different ranges of body mass index. The news piece doesn't make that clear.
Also, it would be helpful to find the actual source data. While there very well could be a connection between COVID severity and being overweight, the data is likely to be skewed given than 20% of the COVID deaths are from the US: While that country does have an overweight problem, it also had a terrible public health program (or lack of one), and that's going to affect that outcome of this kind of study.
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@eobox91103 @raphjd This is a very complicated subject matter. The most valuable lesson I've learned from two doctors over the years was "Association, does NOT mean causation." Also remember that not every doctor is going to agree with the same "study." So, since none of us are medical physicians (I assume), we should refrain from making judgements against overweight people. Especially since the world has not experience this kind of virus before. There is are many many things we don't know about this virus, and more "authoritative" are just pulling shit out of their ass at this point.
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@anythingold I agree with what you're saying. My posting was a bit tangled up because there are several issues going on here:
- The OP said, "Despite what we've been told for the last 15 years, being obese is not healthy." I don't think that's been the message, but there has been a greater consciousness that overweight/obese people still deserve ordinary human respect, and media stereotypes that women should look anorexic are counter to that.
- The article's purported link between being overweight and COVID death rates is not the result of a study--it's anecdotal at best, and skewed because of national policy phenomena.
- The article is also sloppy in shifting terminology from the initial mention of "overweight" to "obese."
Bottom line: Yes, indeed it is complicated, but many people crave simple solutions to complicated problems. The best we can do is follow the current cutting-edge medical advice to protect our own health and the health of others. I've had my two Moderna jabs...and while I'd rather have other things stuck into my body, it's still a good feeling.
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@eobox91103 said in "Healthy at any size" vs C-19:
@anythingold I agree with what you're saying. My posting was a bit tangled up because there are several issues going on here:
- The OP said, "Despite what we've been told for the last 15 years, being obese is not healthy." I don't think that's been the message, but there has been a greater consciousness that overweight/obese people still deserve ordinary human respect, and media stereotypes that women should look anorexic are counter to that.
Hear, hear! Some people make a habit of extrapolating data to the point of hyperbole... At 6'4, 240 is considered overweight... my doctor disagrees and say's I'm quite healthy! He considers my bloodwork and says (convincingly) that I should "keep up the good work"... even when specifically asked "Should I lose weight?" his response was "only if you want to for aesthetic reasons - there is no health risk at your height and build to being your current weight"... (yay me!)
The issue becomes far worse when looking at women's bodies - where virtually impossible forms are often used in advertising... impossible, you say? IMPOSSIBLE! I say! They take an already thin model and then airbrush her to be even MORE thin - impossibly (and unhealthily) thin! And they then present that as the epitome of beauty! BALDERDASH!
I'm not saying a woman who is 5'2 and weighs 300 lbs is healthy - but really, that's a discussion that needs to happen between a patient and their doctor!
You should no more shame that woman (or a similarly built man) than you should shame someone who is bald, or has cancer, or has anything ELSE different about them from what YOU think of as ideal!
- The article's purported link between being overweight and COVID death rates is not the result of a study--it's anecdotal at best, and skewed because of national policy phenomena.
COVID-19 has been around for a whole year now? Why don't we know EVERYTHING about it? I mean, surely someone has found ALL the answers on the Internet by now, right?
I read an interview with someone who's choosing NOT to accept a COVID-19 vaccine because (and I'm not making this up): "He doesn't want to be a guinea-pig and wake-up next year a robot or something"
Thankfully, we live in a free country, and being THAT STUPID is not illegal!
- The article is also sloppy in shifting terminology from the initial mention of "overweight" to "obese."
CNN articles are often poorly written. A favorite of their's (and FOX's as well as other news outlets who have an agenda) is to employ circular logic. It's A because of B, and A proves B!
I had to laugh last week when CNN was attempting to berate House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy for reading a Dr. Seuss book on Zoom to a bunch of kids. They were like "there are more important things to do" - and I'm like "but this is National Read To Your Children Day!"
Bottom line: Yes, indeed it is complicated, but many people crave simple solutions to complicated problems. The best we can do is follow the current cutting-edge medical advice to protect our own health and the health of others. I've had my two Moderna jabs...and while I'd rather have other things stuck into my body, it's still a good feeling.
THANK YOU!
I level head is always welcome here! (By me, anyway!)
I am especially thankful for your statement: people crave simple solutions to complicated problems because that is the CORE of what is driving a wedge between us (politically) these days.It's devolved away from "what's good for the country" and into "I can't let you look good, because that'll make me look bad!" and "Whatever is good for the other guys must be bad for my team!"
The concept of win-win is an anathema to today's politicians... If I could I'd replace the lot of 'em!
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@bi4smooth said in "Healthy at any size" vs C-19:
Thank you for the kind words and additional wisdom.Hear, hear! Some people make a habit of extrapolating data to the point of hyperbole... At 6'4, 240 is considered overweight... my doctor disagrees and say's I'm quite healthy! He considers my bloodwork and says (convincingly) that I should "keep up the good work"... even when specifically asked "Should I lose weight?" his response was "only if you want to for aesthetic reasons - there is no health risk at your height and build to being your current weight"... (yay me!)
You have a good doctor. The standard "body mass index" calculators would suggest that you are not only overweight, but just a few pounds away from being obese! You'd need to go down to 204 lbs to be considered "normal weight" for your height. I have a hunch that shedding 36 lbs would not improve your life.
I read an interview with someone who's choosing NOT to accept a COVID-19 vaccine because (and I'm not making this up): "He doesn't want to be a guinea-pig and wake-up next year a robot or something"
Thankfully, we live in a free country, and being THAT STUPID is not illegal!
This starts to get even more complicated. In theory I accept the idea that people should have the freedom to refuse vaccination...but only as much as I have the freedom to not be exposed to them. If someone declines vaccination and stays perpetually at home, or goes off to live in an anti-vax commune somewhere, fine. But I don't think they should go out in public, into stores, onto airplanes, and God forbid onto a cruise ship.
It reminds me of a sign I saw at an airport security post somewhere: "You have the right to refuse security inspection. If you exercise this right, you will not be permitted into the gate area."
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@eobox91103 said in "Healthy at any size" vs C-19:
You have a good doctor. The standard "body mass index" calculators would suggest that you are not only overweight, but just a few pounds away from being obese! You'd need to go down to 204 lbs to be considered "normal weight" for your height. I have a hunch that shedding 36 lbs would not improve your life.
At 204lbs I would be ultra-skinny! I'm large-boned, so the BMI "tables" are off... they don't take into account other factors. I would know, because at 20 I weighed 180, and I WAS ultra-skinny! TOO THIN!
My Dr says BMI is only 1 indicator of being "overweight" - and it's not even considered a "major" one... other health factors play a much larger role!
I will note that, in spite of being given a "clean bill of health," I am endeavoring to lose some weight... I put some on over COVID lockdowns, and I want to shed it - not for health reasons, but for beauty ones (I want to LIKE what I see in the mirrors when I get out of the shower! LOL)
This starts to get even more complicated. In theory I accept the idea that people should have the freedom to refuse vaccination...but only as much as I have the freedom to not be exposed to them. If someone declines vaccination and stays perpetually at home, or goes off to live in an anti-vax commune somewhere, fine. But I don't think they should go out in public, into stores, onto airplanes, and God forbid onto a cruise ship.
I think you missed my point. I don't object to someone opting-out of a vaccination, if they have an intelligent reason (I have a neighbor who says she's allergic "to everything" and she's afraid she'll have a reaction - that's reasonable!).... thinking that the new vaccines will turn you into a robot... that's just not rational!
I may change my tune in 2-3 years as the machine parts start to replace my human ones, but I'll take my chances??? Yeah - that's the ticket!
It reminds me of a sign I saw at an airport security post somewhere: "You have the right to refuse security inspection. If you exercise this right, you will not be permitted into the gate area."
Good sign... Before I closed my storefront, I had a sign on the front door that said:
COVID-19 restrictions are enforced here.
- You must wear a face covering over your mouth and nose at all times while inside
- You must maintain a minimal 6-foot distance from all employees or other customers at all times
- Your right to not adhere to these rules stops HERE - at our front door!
Underneath, in smaller letters it read:
Failure to adhere to our COVID-19 prevention requirements above will result in your being asked to leave.
Failure to comply will result in a trespassing complaint that WILL be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.And then, at the bottom, in RED print it read:
YES! WE ARE SERIOUS!We turned away quite a few customers - I live in a Florida city, and we had plenty of COVID-19 non-believers... but then, my business doesn't rely on walk-up or walk-in customers... I'm a computer consultant.
People come to me because someone ELSE has "spread the good word"
When the lockdowns first ended, and we were first able to eat in restaurants again, I was at my favorite Sunday Breakfast place, and they had tables blocked off to enforce the distancing and capacity rules. The poor young girl at the door was being totally abused by a customer who, seeing all the empty tables, was insistent that he be allowed to sit at one.
She plainly told the man that "her job depended on her NOT seating anyone at those tables, and unless he had a better job for her RIGHT NOW, she wasn't going to let HIM endanger HER job.
Eventually, the cook from the back came out and shooed him away... the customer yelled "I'll never come back here again!" as he stormed off, and the cook replied (loud enough to hear inside, but not likely loud enough for the guy to hear: "Good! This place is classier already!"
I tipped the girl a $20 on my way out and told her to keep up the good work!
So again, I want to say - I GET IT! Some people have LEGIT reasons NOT to wear masks (asthma? COPD?) - that's fine. Some people have LEGIT reasons NOT to take the vaccine (I have already had my 2-doses of Pfizer's), but "turning into a robot" isn't one of them....
Forest Gump had it right: Stupid is as stupid does
But I'm particularly fond of Ron White's diatribe on ugly women and plastic surgery that ends with "... you can fix almost ANYTHING! But, you can't fix stupid!"
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Umm, are you saying that men don't have to live up to unrealistic body examples?
How many times are we gonna see David Gandy in his underwear or speedo as a benchmark for male looks?!
I bet you didn't know that when the London mayor banned women in skimpy clothing, he didn't do the same for men. The "beach body ready" ad hung up right next to an ad with David Gandy in a white speedo, but only 1 was "oppression".
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@raphjd said in "Healthy at any size" vs C-19:
Umm, are you saying that men don't have to live up to unrealistic body examples?
How many times are we gonna see David Gandy in his underwear or speedo as a benchmark for male looks?!
I bet you didn't know that when the London mayor banned women in skimpy clothing, he didn't do the same for men. The "beach body ready" ad hung up right next to an ad with David Gandy in a white speedo, but only 1 was "oppression".
Not that it doesn't exist, but it isn't as pervasive. Nor is it an image that is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE to achieve!
Agreed that body shaming is a bad thing regardless of gender. The ONLY person who should be telling you to lose weight should be your physician, and then it should be for HEALTH reasons, not cosmetic ones!
In the early 20th Century, skinny girls were WHOLLY unattractive (as were "tan" bodies)... the EPITOME of attractiveness were women "with curves" and whose skin was "ivory white" (the source of the IVORY soap name!)...
Tastes change... in the 1970's "attractive" gay men were muscular, had hairy chests, and mustaches! In the 2000's they were skinny and hairless (practically women!)... now, hair (and tattoos! yech!) is back!
There was even a brief time, during the HIV/AIDS crisis, when men with a little extra fat were considered more desirable! This was, however, because it was believed that the "extra weight" was an indicator that you didn't have AIDS (which had a terrible symptom of wasting-syndrome)...
But I digress... body shaming is bad... love the body you're in, or work to make it one you DO love! But don't let anyone ELSE tell you that you need to change your own body!
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I disagree.
Men have it just as bad (worse now in places like London) when it comes to what men are told they must look like.
The only reason that you, and people like you, believe that women have it worse is because of the constant pity parties we have for them. If the narrative was focused on men, then you would think that men have it worse.
It's like how black people and liberals think that cops are running around murdering every black person they see, despite the statistics proving otherwise.
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@bi4smooth said in "Healthy at any size" vs C-19:
I think you missed my point. I don't object to someone opting-out of a vaccination, if they have an intelligent reason (I have a neighbor who says she's allergic "to everything" and she's afraid she'll have a reaction - that's reasonable!).... thinking that the new vaccines will turn you into a robot... that's just not rational!
Actually, I do agree that if someone has a legitimate medical reason for opting out of a vaccine, that makes sense. But this is a tiny segment of the population, and while those people are at risk themselves, and a risk to others, it's a very small number. (Of course, COVID started with a "very small number" and has now killed millions.)
Unfortunately, most anti-vaxers are that way for wholly irrational reasons. They might not buy into Q-anonish crap like microchips and robot transformations, but instead follow a social/political agenda the discounts the dangers of the virus and put themselves--and others--at great and unnecessary risk. I find it ironic (to use a polite word) that many of these folk have a Dear Leader who not only contracted COVID himself, but then got covertly vaccinated.
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@raphjd I love my block feature
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@raphjd said in "Healthy at any size" vs C-19:
I disagree.
Men have it just as bad (worse now in places like London) when it comes to what men are told they must look like.
The only reason that you, and people like you, believe that women have it worse is because of the constant pity parties we have for them. If the narrative was focused on men, then you would think that men have it worse.
It's like how black people and liberals think that cops are running around murdering every black person they see, despite the statistics proving otherwise.
So we agree that body shaming is bad (awful) behavior.... and we want to argue about who has it worse?
Pass... its bad, always bad, regardless of male, female, trans, gay, str8, bi, pan, etc.
For every example of an internet meme you can post that says how bad guys have it, I can match you with one that shows how bad women have it...
I DO agree it's actually getting WORSE! Men are now starting to wear makeup! (I didn't like my women to wear heavy makeup - declined once to see a girl a 2nd time because she wore heavy makeup TO THE BEACH! (NOTE: I'm pansexual, not "totally" gay - was happily married [to a woman] for 15 years.. well, happily for about 12!
)I will say again: standards of "beauty" change over time - sometimes slowly, sometimes quickly! But they ALWAYS change!
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I'm sure you can show me the countless magazine covers of fat men with the headline being "fat is beautiful" or "healthy at any size" like we see with fat women.
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@raphjd said in "Healthy at any size" vs C-19:
I'm sure you can show me the countless magazine covers of fat men with the headline being "fat is beautiful" or "healthy at any size" like we see with fat women.
Well, let's look at how many Celebrity men have plain-jane wives and compare to how many Celebrity women have "plain-joe" husbands!
One is common, the other practically non-existent.
It's been a male-dominated society for 1000's of years... some level of come-uppance is to be expected!
EDIT: just because it's expected, it doesn't make it right!
I'll say again: body shaming ANYONE is wrong!
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Online dating showed that women choose 20% of men, while men choose 80% of women.
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@raphjd said in "Healthy at any size" vs C-19:
Online dating showed that women choose 20% of men, while men choose 80% of women.
Unsurprising for the US (almost all of Western?) Culture:
- man are taught by our society to be the "aggressor" in relationships - men look for mates...
- women are taught by our society to be "passive" - women look to be woo'ed by potential mates...
This is also why gay MEN usually are so much more promiscuous than gay WOMEN! They are both the woo-er and the woo-ee on the dating sites, so even when they start a relationship, they are continually "found" by other men still looking...
The wolf/sheep metaphor works...
- when wolves (men) are seeking their "prey" (women/sheep) and that prey looks to generally avoid being eaten, there is balance... there is a chasER and a chasEE
- but when wolves (men) are seeking other wolves (other men also "on the prowl") there is a much MUCH higher likelihood that they'll find what they're looking for!
So, if you're a woman on a dating app, you generally don't HAVE to reach out to males... you just sit back and wait for them to reach out to YOU and have your pick from amongst them! (MUCH MUCH less rejection that way! - at least for the woman!)
Is it fair? Hell no, but LIFE ISN'T FAIR, and it NEVER WILL BE! You cannot "fix" society to make it "fair for everyone" - that is a LIBERAL FANTASY!
That doesn't mean you can't work to make things fairER... but "completely fair" is a fantasy! Unobtainable, and totally different depending upon the eye of the beholder!
