@ geekguy
We've talked about this subject here a few times before.
Power seeders and power leechers both have negative effects on the system when taken to the extreme. Power seeders need to walk a fine line. On one hand they are taking up the slack left by power leechers and on the other hand they need to make sure their seeding isn't harming others.
I'm not sure how we could enforce any rules against power seeders. I agree that something needs to be done in, at least a few of the cases I've seen here.
Maybe you could make a new thread and it can finally be discussed in full, instead of as part of the overall ratio requirement issue.
At Raphjd's suggestion, I am starting a new thread to discuss the question of power-seeders and the downside to the system. While this discussion originally started in a thread about the new ratio policy, that is NOT the focus of this this thread. Regardless of your feelings on the new policy, it opens up a discussion of what is "fair," what is mathematically possible, and whether some sort of formal/informal policy on super-seeding is needed.
I am posting here now my original – and somewhat long-winded -- post to which Raphjd replied.
@geekguy:
I think it's important to remember we're talking about minimum ratios. A fair ratio is 1, meaning you've uploaded as much as you've downloaded. I realize it's mathematically impossible for everyone to have a ratio of 1 on every torrent, but it's depressing to see people on torrent sites who download hundreds of gigabytes of stuff and can't be bothered to get a ratio at or close to 1, making themselves an ultimate drain on those sites…
I'm not trying to be rude or target any one person, especially if they are new to torrents and are trying to do the right thing, but I think the major reason for low ratios is that people just don't want to share.This got me thinking about the mathematics of all this "fairness" talk, and so I am going to type out some number stuff. Please look it over and see if I am making sense, or if I just don't understand enough how the ratios and such work in BitTorrent systems.
Example#1 (simplified hypothetical): I upload a new torrent, and it gets 2 peers who each download it to seed. They each get half of the file from me and half from each other. So at the end there are now three complete files, but mine has to come out of the numbers, as it was a pure seed. So the maximum possible AVERAGE ratio for the torrent is the total number of completed torrent downloads (TD) minus my initial seed amount (IS), all divided by the same total download. (TD-IS)/TD. In this example (2 new files - 1 complete initial seed), or (2-1)/2, which equals a ratio of .5 Which is what each of the peers in the example would have (they downloaded a whole file and each uploaded half of a file).
This general formula, (TD-IS)/TD, shows that it is mathematically impossible for everyone in a swarm to have a ratio of 1 for that swarm, although the bigger the swarm, the closer the possibility becomes. That is why uploading is so important, and why the seeding bonus is as well, giving a little boost to the swarm numbers.
However, I noticed something in a just completed upload that impacts this overall discussion.
EXAMPLE#2 (actually just happened, although the numbers have been rounded a little to make the math a little easier)
I uploaded a new torrent last night, set it seeding, and then went to bed. When I looked at it this morning, It had been snatched 45 times, with 35 of those still seeding. My ratio for the file was about 5.0, meaning I had uploaded the file essentially five times (I know that may not be quite correct, as there were some bits more and some bits less, but I am not sure if it really affects the general concern of this example)
When I looked at the seeding list, I noticed something. There were two seeders with high sharing ratios (14 and 9, must have great speeds!), a few with ratios around 1-2, and most of the others had low ratios, even though they were still seeding. Using the formula above, (45-5)/45=.888 possible average ratio for the torrent. But aren't those two with high high ratios removing from the others a good chunk of the files needed to get a ratio of much at all? I know that each swarm is an open system, but it goes dead at some point, and is closed then. So I guess the question is this; while high-ratio seeders are great for spreading the torrent, and help to offset leechers, at some point it seems like they become a negative for everyone else trying to seed that file, regardless of how much someone wants to seed. It is possible that some leechers drop out after getting the file because they simply cannot compete with the power-seeders. I don't believe that is true for everyone, but it could be a factor. Maybe part of the ethic of being a seeder, especially in a closed community like this site, is to seed to a reasonable ratio of 2-4 (something to offset the inevitable leechers), but to stop seeding when your ratio gets high, to give others an equal chance to seed and build up their ratio. ??? Maybe the site would enforce that/maybe not?I didn't write all that to seem technical, because I am not a computer person, and only know the math as a hobby. Just putting it out there to have the discussion. Maybe it would help us to figure out what is "fair" in more objective terms, instead of the heated debate and emotion that many, including myself, have posted.
Thoughts???
I hope it sets the tone for a rational, informative discussion on the issue. I certainly don't claim to be an authority on all of this, just intrigued by all of the discussion, and hoping to foster a robust intellectual discussion where we all might gain some understanding. Please point out flaws in my logic, add information which supports or undercuts, and generally advances the issue.Please post replies!
