Party of family values part 1 😂
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@raphjd said in Party of family values part 1
:I'm going to summarize several points made here, by multiple people... thus, no quoting:
Circumcision:
- I am not for circumcision, and I no more believe there is any ONE reason all people (well, who ARE) are circumcised, any more than I believe there is only ONE reason people eat breakfast in the kitchen. But the puritanical roots of American social norms should not be overlooked or undervalued when looking at circumcision in the US.
- The idea that circumcision reduces masturbation is a strong motivator in some circles - especially religious ones - including in the American "good society" of the 1940s-1970s that was far more puritanical than Western society is, generally, today.
- The procedure is called circumcision - not "genital mutilation" - and it is practiced on both males AND females in different parts of the world.... in most cases for religious reasons, but in some areas (like the US 50 years ago) it has extended beyond pure religion and become cultural (cross-religion). IMHO the effects of circumcision are worse for women than men - because biologically their clitoris has FAR MORE nerve endings than just the tip of the penis. But it's silly to argue about which is worse when both are just wrong.
- Calling it "genital mutilation" is just purposefully inflaming the issue, and it is unnecessary (not unlike calling abortion "baby-killing" - and I'm anti-abortion as well!)... this is a practice @raphjd is all-too familiar with, as it infects a majority of his "opinion pieces"...
- Circumcised penises are the unnatural form, so uncircumcised is kind-of-a-double-negative, no? The opposite of circumcised is just: natural.
- Circumcision has no medical purpose, unless you project purposes ONTO it in hopes of propping up your already weak argument (like this one: HIV is more easily spread by natural men... so for that to carry weight, you're assuming that HIV will still be a deadly disease in 15 years when your little newborn will start shaking his dick at other people? Sorry: no! Or this one: it will make keeping his penis clean easier. True, but cutting off the outer portion of his hears will help keep the dirt from gathering "behind his ears" too... if you can teach your son to wipe his ass and clean behind his ears, you can teach him to clean the head of his penis! And are you seriously telling me you are NOT teaching your daughters about FEMININE hygiene? Or this one: I want him to look like [the others and/or his father] - which is just a total capitulation that you have no reason other than "because they did it to me"... no way!)
- There are RARE instances where a circumcision is needed in some males - but not as DRASTIC a circumcision as is practiced routinely! The ENTIRE foreskin VERY SELDOM needs to be removed - just "opened up" a bit!
Body Shaming:
- The idea that any current society - Western, Eastern, or otherwise - "body shames" men in the same way or to the extent that they do women is just blindness (or, perhaps, ignorance or even complete stupidity).
- There has only recently been an "awakening" among men in Western Culture that their LOOKS mattered to anyone other than other men (in a "manly" way). IMHO, it started with the "metrosexual" movement around the turn-of-the-century, and today many men (mostly younger) are regularly and routinely applying makeup & hair treatments as part of their "morning routines"... the same as women do.
- Sadly, to me this is a sign we're objectifying MEN as much as we used to objectify WOMEN... and that (IMHO) is movement in the wrong direction (for mental and overall health).
- Want proof? Ron Jeremy was a truly UGLY man, by almost any measure... his sole "saving grace" (physically) was having a big dick and a willingness to perform in porn for multiple decades. And he was not alone - outside of GAY PORN, there were few "good looking" men in porn until the 2000's. Show me one truly famous or successful FEMALE porn star who was butt-ass ugly - EVEN if she had size 144 breasts!
- Body shaming is bad - for everyone! It is a waste of breath to complain that it's WORSE for some than others... it affects ALL people! Even the rich/beautiful have their "body shaming" moments! But complaining that improvements intended to help WOMEN overcome body shaming in advertising are somehow wrong because they don't address male body shaming is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater! Perfection is unachievable, but it is approachable if we make small bits of progress here and there (where we can) and build upon it.
Equality and Fairness:
- EQUALITY is a liberal myth. Things cannot be truly EQUAL in any society, because each person has a unique perspective. That gives each person a different definition of what EQUAL truly means to them. While we can have strive to improve and gain some level of equity, we should not delude ourselves that we will ever reach true EQUALITY. One man's equality is another's inequality.
- Likewise, 100% FAIRNESS is another liberal myth: an unachievable, pie-in-the-sky goal. We can work towards making things MORE FAIR, but true fairness cannot be achieved. Consider the two statements below... how do you "fix" either one?:
- What teenage boy doesn't think it isn't fair that the "other guy" in his school has a big cock, big muscles (and a home gym) and gets to drive his dad's Porsche, while he has an average dick (most do), has acne, and gets to drive his mom's minivan...
- What teenage girl doesn't think it isn't fair that the "other girl" in her school has bigger tits (or ANY tits yet) and whose mother pays for her to get her hair and nails done every weekend, while she has to work at the fast-food joint and cook and clean for her siblings while mom works her 2nd job on the weekends.
Life isn't fair. It never was. It never will be. It cannot be made to be so. If anyone has ever promised you life would be fair, they LIED!
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MGF became a thing in the last half of the 1800s. Not only was it supposed to cure evil masturbation but it also prevented or cured several diseases caused by masturbation.
MGF was not made illegal in western countries, but female circumcision was. Thankfully the SCotUS saw the bigotry in the law and threw it out.
Liberals call it mutilation when it happens to girls, but call it circumcision when it happens to boys. I flipped it around.
BULLSHIT about girls being body-shamed but guys are not.
Men have always been body shamed, in the same way, women have. The only difference is that women have been whining about it forever and a day.
Even the fat assed heffers don't want fat men. This is made clear by several surveys.
The 80/20 rule of dating exists for a reason.
Good-looking people, of either gender, do better than ugly people.
The psychology behind ugly ass guys being in porn is that when guys watch it, they think that even they can get the good-looking chicks.
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@raphjd said in Party of family values part 1
:MGF became a thing in the last half of the 1800s. Not only was it supposed to cure evil masturbation but it also prevented or cured several diseases caused by masturbation.
There has been no argument from me that the procedure - whether performed on men or women - is ill-conceived and brutal. Circumcision in men has been around for thousands of years - its commonality has waxed and waned over the centuries, but it has been a part of the Jewish & Islamic faiths from their formations! (Christians essentially "inherited" circumcision from their Jewish foundations, but aren't supposed to practice it - see reference to Paul below...).
NOTE: Islam, not unlike the Jewish faith, has some differing "factions" - some of which REQUIRE circumcision (as Orthodox Jews do), others do not. (YES There is such a thing as an uncircumcised modern Jew - I've tasted one!) LOL! Worldwide, Christians largely DO NOT circumcise their male children (other than in the US and a few smaller countries), because Paul (aka: Saint Paul) taught that the many "laws" of Leviticus were overturned by the "New Testament of Jesus Christ"... The Vatican (Catholic Church) strictly prohibits circumcision for religious reasons - but allows it for medical ones... The point being that: even the 3 major Abrahamic religions can't make up their minds on circumcision!
Quick Rabbit Hole: I once caused quite a stir in college when I said that it (circumcision) was proof that God was a woman or queer! After all, sacrificing humans & animals to the One God was forbidden, but penises? By God, the One God wanted those! ROFL...
MGF was not made illegal in western countries, but female circumcision was. Thankfully the SCotUS saw the bigotry in the law and threw it out.
If you're just presenting a fact, no argument here. But if you're referencing my writing, you're conflating "legal" with "religious and social"...
Liberals call it mutilation when it happens to girls, but call it circumcision when it happens to boys. I flipped it around.
This isn't (at lest as I can see in my area if the US) a Liberal vs. Conservative issue at all... I know both liberal and conservative parents (remember, I'm active in the Foster and Adoptive Parent communities 'round these parts - so, I know a LOT of parents!) who have decided both ways on the question of circumcision. When I am asked, I always counsel AGAINST... for one thing, because it is something that cannot be UNDONE, but also because it IS something that can be done LATER.
BULLSHIT about girls being body-shamed but guys are not.
As usual, you can't see a nuanced argument - you see only black and white. I didn't say women were the ONLY ones body-shamed, only that they were MORE... FAR MORE... body-shamed by Western Culture (esp. in advertising) than men are... but I ALSO pointed out that there is "movement" in that difference... and that the movement is in the WRONG direction: men are starting to be body-shamed (also largely in advertising) more and more...
Also, in your typical all-or-nothing mentality, you cannot seem to accept that some positive action has occurred - because it wasn't everything you wanted, it was a complete and utter failure in your eyes. Pity... Progress is progress!
Men have always been body shamed, in the same way, women have. The only difference is that women have been whining about it forever and a day.
You're either willfully blind or ignorant. I don't need to provide evidence to counter your argument: literally every reader out there will have experienced the falsity - no: absurdity - of your argument in their actual lives.... at least any who have any women (sisters, mothers, daughters, friends) in their day-to-day lives!
Even the fat assed heffers don't want fat men. This is made clear by several surveys.
Clearly you don't frequent fetish porn! There are people who ADORE obese men and women! But we're talking about "societal norms" here. And body shaming isn't recognizing people who "look good" - it's about shaming people who don't fit the current criteria for what's supposed to be "looking good"!!! Especially for criteria that may be genetically defined!
Ask any man who is, say, 40 lbs overweight if he is often called FAT by his friends or coworkers? Or if they ever reference his weight - even with terms like "he's a big man"... and at just 40 lbs overweight, he likely will say "not so much"... or "a little"...
Ask the same of a woman who is, say, just 20 lbs overweight the same - and they will say "all the time" or even "constantly"...Again: this issue isn't whether it is happening more or less to men or women - it's that it's happening at all, and whether steps are being taken to minimize it - for any!
The 80/20 rule of dating exists for a reason.
I have no idea what 80/20 rule of dating you're referring to... my understanding of the 80/20 rule of dating is that if 80% of your time together is "great", your relationship is doing OK... the other 20% being "not great" is normal...
Good-looking people, of either gender, do better than ugly people.
LOL - once again, you conflate body shaming with "fairness" - life isn't fair, and it cannot be. While there is a "bias" towards "beautiful people", the definition of what is beautiful changes:
- 100 years ago, most of today's "beautiful" women would be excoriated as "sickly stick figures"... women were expected to "have curves" - including significant breasts and wide hips!
- 50 years ago, chest hair was "in" - if you had it, you showed it off (this was parodied by Mike Meyers in the Austin Powers series)
- 10 years ago, chest hair in men was OUT - some men were even LASER removing hair from their chests! Only to find that particular pendulum swinging BACK in favor of chest hair again currently...
- When I was growing up, having a deep, "bronze" tan was "the in thing" (clearly for whites!)... not so much now, as we realize that this tanning caused serious skin damage - even skin cancer!
Body shaming is cruel - especially when the body "parts" in question may well be genetically defined. (This includes shaming men with small penises and women with small breasts!) The only people who should be talking to a man or woman about their weight should be their Dr.! If their weight is "healthy" for them, then it's none of the rest of our business. If it is NOT healthy, then it is up to the patient and Dr to figure out a plan of action - it is NOT up to me or the rest of society to weigh in!
Does that mean it doesn't (or won't) happen? No! We'll never be able to make society "kind and accepting" - but we can STOP making it socially acceptable to call someone "fat" or whatever... especially in public.
The psychology behind ugly ass guys being in porn is that when guys watch it, they think that even they can get the good-looking chicks.
Yeah - that's why the guys in porn also have average-to small dicks! Because they want the "average guy" to think "that could be me!"... makes perfect sense to me now!
If you ask me (and I've DONE porn)... the only part of a male actor STRAIGHT males look at is their dick... while they look at the whole package when they look at/fantasize about the women. (Exception: in fetish porn, they look at the fetish - e.g. large breasts - not the whole body...)
Because of the constant portrayals of almost solely large-dicked men in porn, it is a common "belief" by men in counseling that "I'd be more successful in life/sex if I just had a bigger dick"...
Locally, an injury law firm is actually satirizing that very thing... their billboards all proclaim "Size DOES matter!" (they claim to be the largest injury law firm in the country...)
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I'm sick of hearing about how victimized women are from body shaming when they do it to themselves and they do it to men.
Instagram is full of women using "face tune" and other techniques to alter their appearances. InformationOverload on YouTube and various websites out these people for doing it. They created an impossible version of beauty.
2 ad posters right next to each other and only 1 is banned. That is because WAHmen are victims and men don't matter. A woman in a bikini vs David Gandy in a Speedo, but only one is body shaming.
Even during gamer-gate, it was shown that most targeted harassment toward women was by other women. A very recent study showed the same thing. Women are evil to other women and to men.
There is no such thing as "healthy at any size" for men or "lovely and curvy" for men.
The 80/20 rule is that 80% of women are deemed attractive but only 20% of men are deemed attractive.
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@raphjd said in Party of family values part 1
:I'm sick of hearing about how victimized women are from body shaming when they do it to themselves and they do it to men.
There you go, reading into things again - You're isolating the "body shaming" as-if it was only being argued that "body shaming from men" was bad... no such specification was made or implied.
Body shaming is cruel and wrong. Regardless of the source!
And the same is true for body shaming of men! I've heard far more MEN talk about "the fat guy" or "the guy with the micro-penis" or "the guy with 2 beer-bellies" or "chrome dome" or .... the list goes on and on... guys are far harder on guys than the women are!
ESPECIALLY IN THE GAY COMMUNITY!
Instagram is full of women using "face tune" and other techniques to alter their appearances. InformationOverload on YouTube and various websites out these people for doing it. They created an impossible version of beauty.
This is indeed an area where Social Media has been harmful to society - especially they way "mean girls" (or "mean guys") can hide behind anonymity for the most cruel and harmful posts/comments!
2 ad posters right next to each other and only 1 is banned. That is because WAHmen are victims and men don't matter. A woman in a bikini vs David Gandy in a Speedo, but only one is body shaming.
I don't know the specifics of what you're referring to, but here in the States there are some States and Cities where advertising using photoshopped models is forbidden.
That is: the girl in the bikini can be beautiful but you can't have photoshopped her hips and breasts and still use it in the advertising! She has to be her REAL self! You can remove a blemish, or a stray hair - but you cannot alter the models "appearance".
The same (in the States, anyway) goes for men - you can't photoshop in an 8-pack of abs, or grow his bulge in the speedos... you can't even photoshop out his chest hair (tho he can shave prior to the shoot)...
Even during gamer-gate, it was shown that most targeted harassment toward women was by other women. A very recent study showed the same thing. Women are evil to other women and to men.
You are awfully harsh on women... men are awful TOO! As you noted above, and I agree with: women are harder on other women than they are on men, and men are harder on other men than they are on women... but harder (aka: crueler) is not the same as being KIND to the others!
It's worth saying again:
Body shaming is cruel and wrong. Regardless of the source!
There is no such thing as "healthy at any size" for men or "lovely and curvy" for men.
There is no such thing as "healthy at any size" for women either... but that's a MEDICAL issue! (hence the word: healthy) Thus, it should be a private matter between a man (or woman) and their physician.
The 80/20 rule is that 80% of women are deemed attractive but only 20% of men are deemed attractive.
Hmmm... I don't know what to say to that... I'm often told I'm attractive, and I'm about 30 lbs overweight and have a bald head...
I can't (and don't pretend to) speak for others... but I've been body-shamed for my weight and my hair loss... and I've also been complimented on both! I have outgrown the need to have anyone else's approval of my looks... the parts of my looks (my extra weight, for example) that I can change, I am working to change (albeit slowly - it's hard to lose weight at 57!)... the things I cannot change, I don't worry about...
But I'm not a teenage boy (or girl) trying to come to terms with my body- and self-image! That's where the real damage is done! The body-shaming of people - especially children - who aren't emotionally prepared for the cruelty of the anonymous world.
I go back to the statement above: "This is indeed an area where Social Media has been harmful to society - especially they way "mean girls" (or "mean guys") can hide behind anonymity for the most cruel and harmful posts/comments!"
