Jump-on / re-seed during new uploads

MrMazda

@contra966: In your case you mentioned where the seeder is offline and there are over 100 leechers, I absolutely support the valid argument of the seeder was offline. In those cases, I do not feel it to be inappropriate to start jump on seeding. In fact, I actually encourage it under those circumstances.

contra966

Thank you MrMazda for advocating the jump-on practice in special situations where the seeder can't or won't finish sharing the torrent.
These situations are fairly common.

Today I saw this on Man & Man Media - Bareback Boys: Hot Young Boys http://tracker.gaytorrent.ru/details.php?id=95239&dllist=1#seeders a hot title.

Cat Top 1-15 S/L Snatched
Twinks Man & Man Media - Bareback Boys: Hot … 1/153 0

The seeder was offline. So I found the file and am seeding it now so the 153 patient men can get past 57%
The file isn't huge 1.37G and was uploaded on the 2011-01-15 07:35:06.

His details are here:
User Connectable Uploaded Upspeed Downloaded Downspeed Ratio Completed Checked UserAgent
jacky75 No 991.64 MB 6.13 KB/s 0.00 kB 0 B/s Inf. 100.00% 08:05:43 uTorrent/2200(23703

What I find troubling about the situation is that some generous leechers had given the uploader a Seedbonus Gift of 390.0
If they were given as a tip to ensure promptness it seems that was an empty gesture.

The posters torrent description begins:
"Please give me some extra bonus points - I need them......
Please rate and re-seed. Bonus Points are always Greatly Appreciated..Thank you!"

I've added these details because although some might say it is off-topic. It seems to me related to the discussions:
Seed Bonus Whores! http://forum.gaytorrent.ru/index.php?topic=8291.msg30079#msg30079
and
Asking For Seed Bonus Gifts http://forum.gaytorrent.ru/index.php?topic=7208.msg25018#msg25018

I'm sure each case is different, but a simple starting point for many of those that need seed points may be to actually spend time seeding.

EDIT: (MrMazda 2011-01-16) - Corrected URL tags

MrMazda

Again, in the case where the user is not connectible, that should be at the responsibility of the user to ensure that their configuration settings allow them to be connectible. In a case like that, I do not see it as a no no to be a jump on seeder when the user who uploaded the torrent is not connectible.

amice

why? being 'not connectible' only means that you need to wait until the next announce round (maximally 30 minutes)

blackdid

Because, amice, they first made a confusion with an "offline" user, thinking that if he was "offline" he won't seed anymore.

This is why I started a long reply yesterday afternoon, but before posting it, I found my sentences were too…energetic. As I didn't want to appear rude, I didn't post my reply but sent it to mgr only, asking him kindly to read my long answer and tell me if it was suitable to answer that way...or not.
After the little chat we had yesterday evening with Mgr and MrMazda, it appears that Mgr is thinking a lot of this "jump on" thing and he'll probably add some comments sooner or later.

My answer (that I saved in the Draft folder) started with...

Hi all,
I don't understand what you mean by "the seeder is offline"
Offline means not connected to GT web site or to GT Forum, and an uploader doesn't need to be online during seeding.

Apparently you mean the seeder is not "connectible" which hasn't the same meaning at all. Even if he's not connectible, he will upload to others, but not as much as if he was connectible (in fact, he'll get all new leechers names each 30 min, when he connects to GT tracker each 30 min, and will be able to upload to them only at that time)

... the rest of the answer is in Mgr's inbox...

Spintendo

@blackdid:

2) 2nd try : alter the whole .avi file by cutting 1/10th of seconds at the end of the file.
This can be done with good multimedia programs who extract parts of the movie without any recompression (though I guess all key frames are rewritten, but the movie itself stays unchanged) .
Now the "jump-on" guy won't be able to be added as "seeder" until he downloads a complete copy of the altered file.

This course of action is the most effective way of preventing "seed jumping". Additionally, the steps taken to accomplish file alteration are no more complicated than the creation of torrent files themselves, a step that an uploading user has presumably already taken.

Seed jumping is a preventable risk. To consciously reject preventable action is to knowingly invite seed jumpers. Choosing to do nothing, while simultaneously expecting gaytorrent staff to take on the added responsibilty of creating and then enforcing a regime antithetical to seed jumping, is disingenuous. That member's convenience becomes the moderator's delay.

MrMazda

@amice:

why? being 'not connectible' only means that you need to wait until the next announce round (maximally 30 minutes)

True in some cases, but not always the case. In some cases, not being connectible can also mean that a firewall or port forward setting has not been properly configured and is blocking incoming traffic to your computer. In such a case, it doesn't matter how many times the tracker updates, it will yield the same result.

amice

@MrMazda:

True in some cases, but not always the case. In some cases, not being connectible can also mean that a firewall or port forward setting has not been properly configured and is blocking incoming traffic to your computer. In such a case, it doesn't matter how many times the tracker updates, it will yield the same result.

shouldn't happen. even if communication is being blocked by firewall to inside, they still are able to upload to others.

@blackdid:

Because, amice, they first made a confusion with an "offline" user, thinking that if he was "offline" he won't seed anymore.
…
Apparently you mean the seeder is not "connectible" which hasn't the same meaning at all. Even if he's not connectible, he will upload to others, but not as much as if he was connectible (in fact, he'll get all new leechers names each 30 min, when he connects to GT tracker each 30 min, and will be able to upload to them only at that time)

in fact my posting was a reaction to MrMazda's last posting (that's why i didn't use quotes). now to you: either you are or aren't connectible, it has no impact on how much you upload to others; dataflow remains the same. the only difference is that someone may/can beat you in a certain time frame (fast-liners always should limit their upstreams because of this fact).

blackdid

Hello amice
Well you'll have to explain me that again please.

Imho, if i'm not connectible and a leecher enters the swarm, I won't be able to upload to him until my client contacts GT tracker after 30min and get his IP, which means meantime that leecher will download from other users.
On the contrary, if I had been connectible, I could have upload to him as soon as he entered the swarm.

I would like to say that I had both experiences as uploader (being not connectible and being connectible), and if I'm not wrong, I noticed my ratio was much better (on fresh torrents that I uploaded) when I was connectible, compared to the uploads I did when not connectible.

Maybe a very simple detailed example could help us ?
Imagine I'm not connectible and my upload speed is 100Kb/s (I wish it was the case lol), which means approx. 6000Kb/min (6Mb/min) => 360Mb/h

At 3pm exactly I upload a new torrent (size 150Mb)

At 3h25min, leecher #1 enters the swarm (leecher #1 has same upload speed as mine, 360Mb/h and his download speed is 3 times faster, for example, 1Gb/h)
As I'm not connectible, leecher #1 will have to wait a few minutes to start his download, until my client contacts the tracker (each 30 min)

At 3h30min (which is 30 min after 3h) , my client contacts the tracker and finds the IP of leecher #1, so I start to upload the movie to him
As the movie is 150Mb size, leecher #1 will grab the whole movie in less than half an hour (my upload speed being of 360Mb/h , i.e. 180Mb/ 30min)

At 3h31min, leecher #2 enters the swarm : let's say his upload and download speed are same as leecher #1
As I'm not connectible, I won't upload a single byte to leecher #2 until my client contacts GT tracker (next cycle will happen at 4pm)
But during these 29 min (between 3h31 and 4h), leecher #2 will be able to download the whole movie…from leecher #1 (leecher #2 should be able to download 150Mb in 29min, theorically speaking)

At 4h, my client contacts the tracker, finds the IP of leecher #2, but as leecher #2 got the whole movie (from leecher #1), I won't upload anything more

So in the end, how much did I upload when I was not connectible ?
I uploaded exactly 100% of the movie (150Mb), which is a full copy, and not a single byte more.

Now if I had been connectible, things would have been very different :

At 3h31, when leecher #2 joined the swarm, I would have been able to immediately upload to him, which means I would have uploaded to both leechers same time (knowing that leechers 1 & 2 also upload/download from each other)

And how much would have been able to upload to both leechers same time ?
Utorrent help file answers this question (and self experience really confirms it) :
"With normal seeding methods, the initial seeder typically has to upload 150% to 200%, or even more, of the original data in before a full copy of the data has been distributed into the swarm."

That is why, imho, the connectibility issue has a real effect on the amount uploaded. In my example :

Not connectible => 150Mb uploaded (a full copy of the movie to leecher #1)
Connectible => 225Mb uploaded (at least) because duplicates segments of the file would be sent to both leechers (as "initial seeding" is not selected)

But I'm not an expert at all in torrents (when you are), so if something is wrong in my example, please correct it and enlight us, we're just poor ignorant sinners in this complicated torrent world

MrMazda

I see from the discussion that has continued that I appear to not be exactly 100% correct with regards to what being connectible will actually do for you. When I see that users are not connectible, the only thing that I tell them is that it is important to make sure they are connectible as it helps greatly in a number of ways, especially when trying to increase your ratio.

Perhaps mgr can shed a little light on the subject of connectible vs non-connectible to see if perhaps I am wrong about it, and if so, by how much. I know he generally has very clear and concise answers that explain all questions and then some.

contra966

Hi,

As blackdid points out, I beleive I'm guilty of stupidly equating 'not connectible' with offline.
Possibly an easy mistake to confuse the two when looking at snatch details and seeing the green on status and red off status. If I've understood correctly, that red really does mean the user is offline, then its is sad that so many users turn off their machines immediately after leeching their torrent.

And that has sparked a technical discussion. I also believe, again possibly worngly, that as this is a private tracker requests for pieces from leechers have to be served up the tracker. And if true that makes a bottle-neck. I look forward to being advised on that.

Blackdid I'm sorry to have caused you to become 'excited'. Your previous post sounded measured.

But can I draw attention to the bigger picture of last night.
There were at the time of my intevention 156 patient, or possibly impatient users, who had been waiting a day only to reach the 50% mark.
After a few hours the file had been seeded. I let the swarm do its job. Stopped the torrent and focussed on my upload of ~R [CITEBEUR] - Wesh Cousin #8: CAiLLERAS EN FORCE

So 156 members of our family had been kept happy. 274 now.

I haven't had an angry message from jacky75, perhaps he's unaware. But I imagine that he is happy too.

He now has 420 (much needed) seed gift points from that title. And within the day has now sucessfully uploaded and seeded another torrent. (I'll add that in the light of that, whatever the technical 'not connectible' arguments, it seems plain that there was a problem.)

Now I really do not see what I've stolen from him. He has the seed points. The title is on his list of uploads, giving him kudos and a step towards auto-approval.

I'm really supporting MrMazda's and trukr's argument that the practice is not bad in every case. If rules have to be made it has to be better that they have been discussed and thought through.

I'm open to being convinced that this really is an evil.

Until then blackdid I can't see why this causes you so much grief.
I see you are a clever and resourceful man.
You have a very slow connection, but you have an outstanding share ratio, greater than 4.
You have uploaded over 30 torrents and gained the respect and thanks of the community.
Generous members have epressed that thanks with over 3000 gift points.

I look forward to your next post

Best wishes
Contra966

Popper

Not connectible does not mean not seeding (or leeching). If someone is off-line as a seeder or leecher of a torrent, he will simply not appear in the peer list [1].

Not connectible just means other torrent clients requests for parts (or offers) don't reach that members torrent client programme, which slows down the upload/download, but makes it not impossible.

The exchange of data happens on private tracker still directly between the members torrent client programmes, not via our site or tracker. Our tracker informs only members about peers and keeps track of the upload/downloads made by the member's torrent client programme reports.

Private tracker means that no other ways like DHT or peer exchange and so on are allowed to find peers and exchange data on that torrent. So the peers need to use a torrent with our tracker URL and a valid member passkey.

[1] If the seeding has been stopped properly, else he will show up up-to the end of a second tracker cycle (30 to 60 mins.).

blackdid

Hi contra966,
Well if you want me to post my unaltered pending reply, let's do it.
Sorry if it seems a bit rude at times but this are the exact thoughts I had when writing it…yesterday

Hi all,
I don't understand what you mean by "the seeder is offline"
Offline means not connected to GT web site or to GT Forum, and an uploader doesn't need to be online during seeding.

Apparently you mean the seeder is not "connectible" which hasn't the same meaning at all. Even he's not connectible, he will upload to others, but not as much as if he was connectible (in fact, he'll get all new leechers names each 30 min, when he connects to GT tracker each 30 min, and will be able to upload to them only at that time)

@contra966:

What I find troubling about the situation is that some generous leechers had given the uploader a Seedbonus Gift of 390.0 . If they were given as a tip to ensure promptness it seems that was an empty gesture.

They gave him Seedbonus Gift because they saw his download rights were disabled and he is a good uploader, as it can be seen in his profile : he uploaded dozens of torrents these last months. Actually he needs to upload more than 22GB to be able to download anything (as shown in his profile)

Now if his upload speed is slow, as you showed it (6.13 KB/s) , that's the reason why he needs all the credit of his upload. We see in the 2 attached pics that he keeps uploading…at his speed, the point is that he won't be able to upload a full copy of his movie (1.37GB) now that he's not alone anymore as a seeder [updated on january 17 : more than 24 hours after I wrote this post, he uploaded only 1.27Gb of his own movie !] . So I'm glad for him that users gifted him with SBP so he'll be able to upload new torrents. If noone gifted him with SBP because of his slow upload speed, then he'd better stop his downloads and uploads, especially if anyone jumps on his torrents before he uploaded a full copy of it.

@MrMazda:

I think taking a look at the ratio of both the uploader and the jump on seeder is an essential key to take into account. For example, if a user is trying to fix their ratio because of a low ratio warning and a jump on seeder with a ratio of like 6.2 for example jumps on to try and cheat the user out of good and fair ratio, personally, I'd want to punch the jump on in the face. No… I don't condone violence, but sometimes it is nescessary to give users a few light slams every now and then :rotfl:

So in this case :

the uploader had a ratio problem (download disabled !)
the uploader had a slow upload speed (6.13Kb/s)
the jump-on seeder had a fast upload speed (90.84Kb/s)
Was the "jump-on" acceptable on his torrent when he has his download rights disabled and he tries to fix his ratio ?

Once again, each one sees it his own way, but i'll NEVER jump on any torrent in its initial phase (until it has been snatched by 3-4 users)…except if the original uploader allows it explicitly.
Ok, GT is a sharing site, but it's a sharing site with ratio. There are probably sharing sites without any ratio concern, then of course jump-on wouldn't be an issue on that kind of sites.

@contra966:

Uwe said you lose the kudos of a seed ratio of one. I'll need him to explain that technicality to me.

I hope he'll explain to you, but with your 90KB/s upload speed, compared to the original uploader 6KB/s, if you had jumped on his torrent much earlier than you did ("gladly" you did it when he already uploaded 990Mb), you could have had this result at the moment where 3 or 4 had snatched the torrent :

he uploaded only 100MB
you uploaded 1.2GB
I wonder how he would have been able to recover his download rights if this ever happen (he needs to upload 22GB), in case noone gifts him with SBP.

Now another solution to avoid this problem : unsubscribe users with turtle upload speed !
But I'm not sure at all this radical solution will ever be accepted (and I hate that solution)

So this will be an endless problem as long as there will be no rule, because each one will react his own way. Some Mods or Admins don't want this "jump on" at all, i.e Mgr, Uwe etc…

What do you think of Mgr writing this in one of his precedent post ?

@mgr:

@arthurdent:

I have no problems with others jumping on my torrents. It simply means that others can download faster.

That again depends on a lot of factors. If the "jumping on" one has a good upload speed (like a server based seedbox) that might become disastrous for your upload traffic and thus to your ratio. (unless you decide to seed for a very long time - and that means in the range of several months - not hours ).

For users it's the same problem : users with fast upload speed won't find it a problem, because they will have less ratio problems than users with slow upload speeds who have to work hard to maintain a decent ratio.

Also, for all those who want to "share the file as fast as possible", why don't you select "Initial Seeding" in all of your uploads (in utorrent) ?
You will upload the file faster (because you won't upload duplicates segments to different users) but you won't increase your ratio as high as you do it now (utorrent help says this : a full copy of the file will need you to upload 105% of the file when you select "Initial Seeding", compared to 150-200% of the file when not selected)

Added on january 17 :
@contra966:

Possibly an easy mistake to confuse the two when looking at snatch details and seeing the green on status and red off status. If I've understood correctly, that red really does mean the user is offline, then its is sad that so many users turn off their machines immediately after leeching their torrent.

No, that green / red light found in all snatched lines has nothing to do with seeding / not seeding the torrent (or turning off their machines)

Green = the user is actually in GT web site (like me writing this post) . Even if I'm not seeding anything right now, my "green" light appears in all snatched lines from all torrents I downloaded (check yours, you'll notice same, even if you don't seed a torrent you already snatched, you'll notice a green light in your snatch line)
Red = the user is not in GT web site right now, but you can't tell by this red light in his snatched line that he's not seeding the torrent. Just browse through any recent torrent now, don't you notice many users that just snatched the file have a red light and are also found in seeders lines ?

When I download a torrent at night while sleeping, I close my Browser and turn off the monitor before going to bed (of course utorrent is active and downloading)
As soon as I close my Browser (after having quit GT), all my green lights (in snatched lines, Forum…) will turn to red

During the night, as soon as the leeching ends, I'll be seen in 2 places in the torrent page :

In the snatched window...with a "red" light
In the seeder window, because the client turns me automatically to "Seeding" as soon as the leeching phase ended.
So I'll be 100% seeding...even if the light is red in my snatched line.

amice

@__blackdid__

actually, there is no special explanation for you necessary, as your example was absolutely correct (perhaps if you read my reply with more attention, you could save your fingers - because i completely agree with you). my reaction only precises your previous utterance. in fact, connectibility has no effect on it. now have a closer look at what happens and why the real result is different from this 'scheme'…

there are more forms of 'bad behavior' on this tracker, not only jumping-on. another flaming problem names over-seeding - here's the stumbling-block of this case. two basic forms of overseeding can be recognized: too fast up-streams & over-ratio. both are dangerous and detrimental for new users and for slow-liners. if all users would be gentlemen and set their clients in the spirit of a fair-share policy, no one would have problems here.

what to do? alas, there is very little to help out of this uneasiness. no rules would help resolving this event, we need a firm system solution - site software control against all 3 pet peeves: jumping-on, up-streams, over-ratio. i hope you can imagine how a complicated change this would be

however, a few tools might help with this: uTP protocol in uTorrent (supposed to help with NAT issues), initial-seeding mode (should be morally obligatory for fast-liners), maximal moral per-torrent ratio of 1.1

@__MrMazda__

you wrongly got my objection. i was talking about your opinion that non-connectible users should endure jumping-on, just because of their technical state. i asked why, because as me, Uwe and others already many times explained that connectibility may not be seen as an obstacle in the seeding process (as it isn't either).

typos corrected

blackdid

@amice:

actually, there is no special explanation for you necessary, as your example was absolutely correct.

I like that, i like that :cheers:
Coming from you, it means a lot to me, it shows I understood a bit this connectible thing.
I tried to give a full detailed example, indicating exactly the tracker update times, the upload/download speed of the original uploader and the 2 leechers, the exact time when both leechers entered the swarm, the torrent size and the amount uploaded by the original seeder to each leecher, what a mixture !

@amice:

there are more forms of 'bad behavior' on this tracker, not only jumping-on. another flaming problem names over-seeding

Well, now you teach me something new as I didn't know at all what was "over-seeding" and the bad effects it could have on others.
I found a link that may be interesting, with someone asking : "What is overseeding ?"
And the 1st answer given to him was : "Some who overseed make it hard for others to seed back what they've downloaded"

hxxp://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/915839

MrMazda

@amice: Oops… My bad

@blackdid: You do raise a good point with the example of the difference of speed. In that kind of case, I wouldn't necessarily say that it would warrant punching the jump on seeder in the face because again, nobody likes a slow download. I would say though that it still may not exactly be looked to kindly on by the original uploader. It's kinda hard to draw the line in that kind of situation.

stealfire

Seed bonuses from very generous members have been extremely helpful to me and have allowed me to dig myself out the hole I was in. I would have done so anyway, it just would have taken much longer. However, they are a gift and not a given and so should not be taken into consideration re: this topic.

Reality is that someone with faster access is going to be able to upload and download faster than someone with a slower connection. It makes no sense to upload another copy just because you had intended to do so. Isn't there a rule about uploading duplicates? Everyone deserves their due - the one who uploaded the torrent should receive whatever credit comes from doing so.

(As memory gets cheaper and bandwidths get wider, better quality, larger sized torrents make more sense to me. If given a choice, I prefer to download a high quality version, knowingly spending the space, time and bandwidth resources to do so. I find it ironic that in a time of high definition, we're willing to give up quality for convenience as I do with Netflix streaming.)

mgr

I completely agree with you - especially with your last paragraph which I quote to impress the importance of good quality videos opposed to convenient(?) smaller downloads!

@stealfire:

As memory gets cheaper and bandwidths get wider, better quality, larger sized torrents make more sense to me. If given a choice, I prefer to download a high quality version, knowingly spending the space, time and bandwidth resources to do so. I find it ironic that in a time of high definition, we're willing to give up quality for convenience as I do with Netflix streaming.)

amice

@blackdid:

…
Well, now you teach me something new as I didn't know at all what was "over-seeding" and the bad effects it could have on others.
I found a link that may be interesting, with someone asking : "What is overseeding ?"
And the 1st answer given to him was : "Some who overseed make it hard for others to seed back what they've downloaded"

hxxp://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/915839

there is nothing to "teach", the title of this says for all. over is simply over. or is there anything special to explain for you?

blackdid

@amice:

there is nothing to "teach", the title of this says for all. over is simply over. or is there anything special to explain for you?

Well…I was thinking about the pros and cons of overseeding : if overseeding means you never stop to seed your torrent in the client program even long ago after you snatched it, then download speed will be very fast for all those who start to leech this torrent anytime, because of many seeders and few/no leechers. I feel that some users (who like to download their torrents very fast) will like that.

Especially I read often in GT Forum : seed, seed, seed, to keep the torrents alive and help others in their downloads.
The SBP gift (1 SBP each 2 hours) has nothing to do with that, because you earn it no matter how many torrents you seed (it's same if you seed 1 or 100 torrents)

Now the cons : as the guy answered in the other Forum, if you keep on seeding forever (and you have a fast upload speed), "you make it hard for users with slow upload speed to seed back what they've downloaded", i.e at least one full copy of what you have downloaded, to reach a 1:1 ratio on that torrent.

Maybe there are other pros and cons concerning overseeding ?
That's what I wanted to know

I just found another link where they discuss a lot about it and they have very strict rules in that Forum.
Just maximize "Pedro's warning pic" in the middle of the web page and read their detailed overseeding rules :

hXXp://www.torrent-invites.com/bittorrent-discussion/34671-overseeding-rules.html

Their Pedro's pic is really interesting (I wonder if I should attach it here but I prefer not as it's not GT rules) : please note how they refuse overseeding during 48 hours only (i.e. no ratio > 3 for that fresh torrent, except from the original uploader) then they encourage everybody to start seeding the torrent again...after 48 hours, now I've got it

And on their page 2, they give examples the way we do, starting with : "Let's say A has 100mbit UL line, B has 10mbit UL and both have 100mbit DL line..."
I like that !

Gee...7 pages of full comments, a user writing this :
"I think the best way to restrict overseeding is be simply not giving upload credit for overseeding. That way the true devoted people can still contribute for free and there would be no problems on the tracker..."

And this : "Of course seeding is a good thing, but what I meant to say is that I believe it's fair to give chance to people with slower upload speeds to return as close to 1.0 as they can as fast as they can. While there is no doubt that better speeds are always welcome, I for one would be prepared to wait a little bit more to get content I want if that can help people without great speeds to maintain good ratio."