#45's Tax Returns
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Working with a foreign government to misinform the American people is one thing, but giving that foreign government access to private voter information would be a serious crime, that's what's meant when people allege there was some collusion. Do you understand that a foreign power knew highly detailed information about American citizens and it's not clear how they were able to access that information?….Mueller could find that the Obama administration made a serious error and caused detailed voter information to get in the hands of that foreign government for all we know.
...How did a foreign power get personal voter data? Were they helped? Was it something caused by the previous administration? If so, will someone from that administration be held responsible? I find it ridiculous that people are so dead set on looking over the fact that serious attempts at actually hacking into voting machines were made and that securing our elections is some kind of joke. It's not a joke; which is why both parties came together and called it out and passed new sanctions against that foreign government. It's why there has been hearing after hearing on this. This is an American problem, not a left vs. right problem.
Let's break this into several manageable chunks.
- Collusion vs conspiracy. You keep mentioning Muller. He is not interested in collusion but conspiracy, cover up, and if there was anything criminal done during the election that people on the Right were part of. Every time you misuse collusion you send a signal that you're paying attention to a partisan press.
If you want to understand what real collusion looks like check out what happens when a US senator steps out of bounds to influence Nicaragua.
http://www.nytimes.com/1984/04/20/us/congress-letter-to-nicaragua-dear-comandante.htmlOr think back to the collusion between Stalin and Roosevelt on the post-WWII world.
There's even the alleged collusion between then Senator Kennedy and the KGB to undermine Regan (unproven).
Collusion is not what Muller is actively investigating – Russia and Trump did not set out to divide the US for Russia to rule by proxy. Muller is investigating whether or not Team Trump actively sought out help to undermine Hillary AND if there would be any legal statues broken vis a vie whatever proof they might find.
-
Your phrasing in, "[d]o you understand that a foreign power knew highly detailed information about American citizens" gives me the impression that Russian intelligence was directly targeting individual US citizens. To be honest, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I did a few Google searches and found nothing to hint at what you're implying.
-
Why aren't people more interested in this alleged story? Because the US has actively interfered with foreign governments, foreign government actively do this as well, and when you step back, the whole story looks like revenge for the Birther issue.
Every iteration of the US government actively tries to alter world politics. What do you think sanctions have been in Cuba, North Korea, Iran but a means to make the public rise against their leaders to pursue an agenda our elites prefer. Do and did Russia and China try to influence our elections? Absolutely. Did they? Sure, to a point. But they can only create fake news stories on Facebook. If the public has been conditioned over time to be believe everything they read and hear, that's neither collusion or conspiracy; it's stupidity, a wake-up call to teach people how to think critically.
From where I sit, people rallying around this idea of collusion are no different than those who maintained the birther (non) issue. And if you're a foreign person whose country has been affected by the US, you'd see a layer of irony on top of that.
-
Working with a foreign government to misinform the American people is one thing, but giving that foreign government access to private voter information would be a serious crime, that's what's meant when people allege there was some collusion. Do you understand that a foreign power knew highly detailed information about American citizens and it's not clear how they were able to access that information?….Mueller could find that the Obama administration made a serious error and caused detailed voter information to get in the hands of that foreign government for all we know.
...How did a foreign power get personal voter data? Were they helped? Was it something caused by the previous administration? If so, will someone from that administration be held responsible? I find it ridiculous that people are so dead set on looking over the fact that serious attempts at actually hacking into voting machines were made and that securing our elections is some kind of joke. It's not a joke; which is why both parties came together and called it out and passed new sanctions against that foreign government. It's why there has been hearing after hearing on this. This is an American problem, not a left vs. right problem.
Let's break this into several manageable chunks.
- Collusion vs conspiracy. You keep mentioning Muller. He is not interested in collusion but conspiracy, cover up, and if there was anything criminal done during the election that people on the Right were part of. Every time you misuse collusion you send a signal that you're paying attention to a partisan press.
If you want to understand what real collusion looks like check out what happens when a US senator steps out of bounds to influence Nicaragua.
http://www.nytimes.com/1984/04/20/us/congress-letter-to-nicaragua-dear-comandante.htmlOr think back to the collusion between Stalin and Roosevelt on the post-WWII world.
There's even the alleged collusion between then Senator Kennedy and the KGB to undermine Regan (unproven).
Collusion is not what Muller is actively investigating – Russia and Trump did not set out to divide the US for Russia to rule by proxy. Muller is investigating whether or not Team Trump actively sought out help to undermine Hillary AND if there would be any legal statues broken vis a vie whatever proof they might find.
-
Your phrasing in, "[d]o you understand that a foreign power knew highly detailed information about American citizens" gives me the impression that Russian intelligence was directly targeting individual US citizens. To be honest, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I did a few Google searches and found nothing to hint at what you're implying.
-
Why aren't people more interested in this alleged story? Because the US has actively interfered with foreign governments, foreign government actively do this as well, and when you step back, the whole story looks like revenge for the Birther issue.
Every iteration of the US government actively tries to alter world politics. What do you think sanctions have been in Cuba, North Korea, Iran but a means to make the public rise against their leaders to pursue an agenda our elites prefer. Do and did Russia and China try to influence our elections? Absolutely. Did they? Sure, to a point. But they can only create fake news stories on Facebook. If the public has been conditioned over time to be believe everything they read and hear, that's neither collusion or conspiracy; it's stupidity, a wake-up call to teach people how to think critically.
From where I sit, people rallying around this idea of collusion are no different than those who maintained the birther (non) issue. And if you're a foreign person whose country has been affected by the US, you'd see a layer of irony on top of that.
For the sake of finding some common ground on this and moving on (since it's clear there's no intention to take a serious investigation seriously) I'll just say in conclusion, we will see what happens once the investigation ends. I've stated in my responses that nothing has yet been proven; therefore, I'm only going off of how guilty to president has been acting. I've also stated that if Mueller does not recommend charges, I believe everyone should let this go and move on. I've noticed for the past couple of months this has not been the main topic of news; healthcare and Hurricane relief have been, so the premise that this is all the left and MSM talks about is false anyway.
My only problem, like many others on the left, has been people like yourself dismissing a serious investigation that was launched almost unanimously by our elected officials of all parties and backed up by our intelligence agencies all to believe one president and his administration. If this administration knowingly aided a foreign power in obtaining personal voter data then they will be labeled as traitors. If this president has been involved in trying to cover up or obstruct any parts of the investigation, he should be held accountable. One thing's for sure, my "Lock Him Up" signature will remain until the investigation is over and no charges are recommended.
-
Working with a foreign government to misinform the American people is one thing, but giving that foreign government access to private voter information would be a serious crime, that's what's meant when people allege there was some collusion. Do you understand that a foreign power knew highly detailed information about American citizens and it's not clear how they were able to access that information?….Mueller could find that the Obama administration made a serious error and caused detailed voter information to get in the hands of that foreign government for all we know.
...How did a foreign power get personal voter data? Were they helped? Was it something caused by the previous administration? If so, will someone from that administration be held responsible? I find it ridiculous that people are so dead set on looking over the fact that serious attempts at actually hacking into voting machines were made and that securing our elections is some kind of joke. It's not a joke; which is why both parties came together and called it out and passed new sanctions against that foreign government. It's why there has been hearing after hearing on this. This is an American problem, not a left vs. right problem.
Let's break this into several manageable chunks.
- Collusion vs conspiracy. You keep mentioning Muller. He is not interested in collusion but conspiracy, cover up, and if there was anything criminal done during the election that people on the Right were part of. Every time you misuse collusion you send a signal that you're paying attention to a partisan press.
If you want to understand what real collusion looks like check out what happens when a US senator steps out of bounds to influence Nicaragua.
http://www.nytimes.com/1984/04/20/us/congress-letter-to-nicaragua-dear-comandante.htmlOr think back to the collusion between Stalin and Roosevelt on the post-WWII world.
There's even the alleged collusion between then Senator Kennedy and the KGB to undermine Regan (unproven).
Collusion is not what Muller is actively investigating – Russia and Trump did not set out to divide the US for Russia to rule by proxy. Muller is investigating whether or not Team Trump actively sought out help to undermine Hillary AND if there would be any legal statues broken vis a vie whatever proof they might find.
-
Your phrasing in, "[d]o you understand that a foreign power knew highly detailed information about American citizens" gives me the impression that Russian intelligence was directly targeting individual US citizens. To be honest, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I did a few Google searches and found nothing to hint at what you're implying.
-
Why aren't people more interested in this alleged story? Because the US has actively interfered with foreign governments, foreign government actively do this as well, and when you step back, the whole story looks like revenge for the Birther issue.
Every iteration of the US government actively tries to alter world politics. What do you think sanctions have been in Cuba, North Korea, Iran but a means to make the public rise against their leaders to pursue an agenda our elites prefer. Do and did Russia and China try to influence our elections? Absolutely. Did they? Sure, to a point. But they can only create fake news stories on Facebook. If the public has been conditioned over time to be believe everything they read and hear, that's neither collusion or conspiracy; it's stupidity, a wake-up call to teach people how to think critically.
From where I sit, people rallying around this idea of collusion are no different than those who maintained the birther (non) issue. And if you're a foreign person whose country has been affected by the US, you'd see a layer of irony on top of that.
For the sake of finding some common ground on this and moving on (since it's clear there's no intention to take a serious investigation seriously) I'll just say in conclusion, we will see what happens once the investigation ends. I've stated in my responses that nothing has yet been proven; therefore, I'm only going off of how guilty to president has been acting. I've also stated that if Mueller does not recommend charges, I believe everyone should let this go and move on. I've noticed for the past couple of months this has not been the main topic of news; healthcare and Hurricane relief have been, so the premise that this is all the left and MSM talks about is false anyway.
My only problem, like many others on the left, has been people like yourself dismissing a serious investigation that was launched almost unanimously by our elected officials of all parties and backed up by our intelligence agencies all to believe one president and his administration. If this administration knowingly aided a foreign power in obtaining personal voter data then they will be labeled as traitors. If this president has been involved in trying to cover up or obstruct any parts of the investigation, he should be held accountable. One thing's for sure, my "Lock Him Up" signature will remain until the investigation is over and no charges are recommended.
No, you are wrong. You have been pounding on this nothing burger of tax returns for over a year now. Trump did nothing wrong. There is no obligation to publish one's tax returns. Rachel Madcow did a much advertised special in which she ILLEGALLYbroadcast selected Trump tax returns (and didn't get punished for it). Your asinine photos on all of your messages shows Trump in prison. He hasn't even been CHARGED with anything. You haven't even suggested that Trump did anything that would put him in jail, yet you continue to do so. What you are doing falls under the category of libel / slander / defamation
-
Working with a foreign government to misinform the American people is one thing, but giving that foreign government access to private voter information would be a serious crime, that's what's meant when people allege there was some collusion. Do you understand that a foreign power knew highly detailed information about American citizens and it's not clear how they were able to access that information?….Mueller could find that the Obama administration made a serious error and caused detailed voter information to get in the hands of that foreign government for all we know.
...How did a foreign power get personal voter data? Were they helped? Was it something caused by the previous administration? If so, will someone from that administration be held responsible? I find it ridiculous that people are so dead set on looking over the fact that serious attempts at actually hacking into voting machines were made and that securing our elections is some kind of joke. It's not a joke; which is why both parties came together and called it out and passed new sanctions against that foreign government. It's why there has been hearing after hearing on this. This is an American problem, not a left vs. right problem.
Let's break this into several manageable chunks.
- Collusion vs conspiracy. You keep mentioning Muller. He is not interested in collusion but conspiracy, cover up, and if there was anything criminal done during the election that people on the Right were part of. Every time you misuse collusion you send a signal that you're paying attention to a partisan press.
If you want to understand what real collusion looks like check out what happens when a US senator steps out of bounds to influence Nicaragua.
http://www.nytimes.com/1984/04/20/us/congress-letter-to-nicaragua-dear-comandante.htmlOr think back to the collusion between Stalin and Roosevelt on the post-WWII world.
There's even the alleged collusion between then Senator Kennedy and the KGB to undermine Regan (unproven).
Collusion is not what Muller is actively investigating – Russia and Trump did not set out to divide the US for Russia to rule by proxy. Muller is investigating whether or not Team Trump actively sought out help to undermine Hillary AND if there would be any legal statues broken vis a vie whatever proof they might find.
-
Your phrasing in, "[d]o you understand that a foreign power knew highly detailed information about American citizens" gives me the impression that Russian intelligence was directly targeting individual US citizens. To be honest, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I did a few Google searches and found nothing to hint at what you're implying.
-
Why aren't people more interested in this alleged story? Because the US has actively interfered with foreign governments, foreign government actively do this as well, and when you step back, the whole story looks like revenge for the Birther issue.
Every iteration of the US government actively tries to alter world politics. What do you think sanctions have been in Cuba, North Korea, Iran but a means to make the public rise against their leaders to pursue an agenda our elites prefer. Do and did Russia and China try to influence our elections? Absolutely. Did they? Sure, to a point. But they can only create fake news stories on Facebook. If the public has been conditioned over time to be believe everything they read and hear, that's neither collusion or conspiracy; it's stupidity, a wake-up call to teach people how to think critically.
From where I sit, people rallying around this idea of collusion are no different than those who maintained the birther (non) issue. And if you're a foreign person whose country has been affected by the US, you'd see a layer of irony on top of that.
For the sake of finding some common ground on this and moving on (since it's clear there's no intention to take a serious investigation seriously) I'll just say in conclusion, we will see what happens once the investigation ends. I've stated in my responses that nothing has yet been proven; therefore, I'm only going off of how guilty to president has been acting. I've also stated that if Mueller does not recommend charges, I believe everyone should let this go and move on. I've noticed for the past couple of months this has not been the main topic of news; healthcare and Hurricane relief have been, so the premise that this is all the left and MSM talks about is false anyway.
My only problem, like many others on the left, has been people like yourself dismissing a serious investigation that was launched almost unanimously by our elected officials of all parties and backed up by our intelligence agencies all to believe one president and his administration. If this administration knowingly aided a foreign power in obtaining personal voter data then they will be labeled as traitors. If this president has been involved in trying to cover up or obstruct any parts of the investigation, he should be held accountable. One thing's for sure, my "Lock Him Up" signature will remain until the investigation is over and no charges are recommended.
No, you are wrong. You have been pounding on this nothing burger of tax returns for over a year now. Trump did nothing wrong. There is no obligation to publish one's tax returns. Rachel Madcow did a much advertised special in which she ILLEGALLYbroadcast selected Trump tax returns (and didn't get punished for it). Your asinine photos on all of your messages shows Trump in prison. He hasn't even been CHARGED with anything. You haven't even suggested that Trump did anything that would put him in jail, yet you continue to do so. What you are doing falls under the category of libel / slander / defamation
Thank you for your input Frederick, I really appreciate it. :hug:
-
Working with a foreign government to misinform the American people is one thing, but giving that foreign government access to private voter information would be a serious crime, that's what's meant when people allege there was some collusion. Do you understand that a foreign power knew highly detailed information about American citizens and it's not clear how they were able to access that information?….Mueller could find that the Obama administration made a serious error and caused detailed voter information to get in the hands of that foreign government for all we know.
...How did a foreign power get personal voter data? Were they helped? Was it something caused by the previous administration? If so, will someone from that administration be held responsible? I find it ridiculous that people are so dead set on looking over the fact that serious attempts at actually hacking into voting machines were made and that securing our elections is some kind of joke. It's not a joke; which is why both parties came together and called it out and passed new sanctions against that foreign government. It's why there has been hearing after hearing on this. This is an American problem, not a left vs. right problem.
Let's break this into several manageable chunks.
- Collusion vs conspiracy. You keep mentioning Muller. He is not interested in collusion but conspiracy, cover up, and if there was anything criminal done during the election that people on the Right were part of. Every time you misuse collusion you send a signal that you're paying attention to a partisan press.
If you want to understand what real collusion looks like check out what happens when a US senator steps out of bounds to influence Nicaragua.
http://www.nytimes.com/1984/04/20/us/congress-letter-to-nicaragua-dear-comandante.htmlOr think back to the collusion between Stalin and Roosevelt on the post-WWII world.
There's even the alleged collusion between then Senator Kennedy and the KGB to undermine Regan (unproven).
Collusion is not what Muller is actively investigating – Russia and Trump did not set out to divide the US for Russia to rule by proxy. Muller is investigating whether or not Team Trump actively sought out help to undermine Hillary AND if there would be any legal statues broken vis a vie whatever proof they might find.
-
Your phrasing in, "[d]o you understand that a foreign power knew highly detailed information about American citizens" gives me the impression that Russian intelligence was directly targeting individual US citizens. To be honest, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I did a few Google searches and found nothing to hint at what you're implying.
-
Why aren't people more interested in this alleged story? Because the US has actively interfered with foreign governments, foreign government actively do this as well, and when you step back, the whole story looks like revenge for the Birther issue.
Every iteration of the US government actively tries to alter world politics. What do you think sanctions have been in Cuba, North Korea, Iran but a means to make the public rise against their leaders to pursue an agenda our elites prefer. Do and did Russia and China try to influence our elections? Absolutely. Did they? Sure, to a point. But they can only create fake news stories on Facebook. If the public has been conditioned over time to be believe everything they read and hear, that's neither collusion or conspiracy; it's stupidity, a wake-up call to teach people how to think critically.
From where I sit, people rallying around this idea of collusion are no different than those who maintained the birther (non) issue. And if you're a foreign person whose country has been affected by the US, you'd see a layer of irony on top of that.
For the sake of finding some common ground on this and moving on (since it's clear there's no intention to take a serious investigation seriously) I'll just say in conclusion, we will see what happens once the investigation ends. I've stated in my responses that nothing has yet been proven; therefore, I'm only going off of how guilty to president has been acting. I've also stated that if Mueller does not recommend charges, I believe everyone should let this go and move on. I've noticed for the past couple of months this has not been the main topic of news; healthcare and Hurricane relief have been, so the premise that this is all the left and MSM talks about is false anyway.
My only problem, like many others on the left, has been people like yourself dismissing a serious investigation that was launched almost unanimously by our elected officials of all parties and backed up by our intelligence agencies all to believe one president and his administration. If this administration knowingly aided a foreign power in obtaining personal voter data then they will be labeled as traitors. If this president has been involved in trying to cover up or obstruct any parts of the investigation, he should be held accountable. One thing's for sure, my "Lock Him Up" signature will remain until the investigation is over and no charges are recommended.
No, you are wrong. You have been pounding on this nothing burger of tax returns for over a year now. Trump did nothing wrong. There is no obligation to publish one's tax returns. Rachel Madcow did a much advertised special in which she ILLEGALLYbroadcast selected Trump tax returns (and didn't get punished for it). Your asinine photos on all of your messages shows Trump in prison. He hasn't even been CHARGED with anything. You haven't even suggested that Trump did anything that would put him in jail, yet you continue to do so. What you are doing falls under the category of libel / slander / defamation
Thank you for your input Frederick, I really appreciate it. :hug:
I'm so glad you approve! :thx:
-
- Your phrasing in, "[d]o you understand that a foreign power knew highly detailed information about American citizens" gives me the impression that Russian intelligence was directly targeting individual US citizens. To be honest, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I did a few Google searches and found nothing to hint at what you're implying.
For the sake of finding some common ground on this and moving on (since it's clear there's no intention to take a serious investigation seriously) I'll just say in conclusion, we will see what happens once the investigation ends. I've stated in my responses that nothing has yet been proven; therefore, I'm only going off of how guilty to president has been acting. I've also stated that if Mueller does not recommend charges, I believe everyone should let this go and move on. I've noticed for the past couple of months this has not been the main topic of news; healthcare and Hurricane relief have been, so the premise that this is all the left and MSM talks about is false anyway.
My only problem, like many others on the left, has been people like yourself dismissing a serious investigation that was launched almost unanimously by our elected officials of all parties and backed up by our intelligence agencies all to believe one president and his administration. If this administration knowingly aided a foreign power in obtaining personal voter data then they will be labeled as traitors. If this president has been involved in trying to cover up or obstruct any parts of the investigation, he should be held accountable. One thing's for sure, my "Lock Him Up" signature will remain until the investigation is over and no charges are recommended.
From what I've seen in these threads, I'm the only person with an opposing side taking you seriously. To say I'm not is to deflect from the points I raised.
Since you've not called it collusion here, I'll assume you accept my point.
You still have not explained what you mean by "obtaining personal voting data".
And I explained why people aren't taking this seriously: Influencing elections is part of global politics and the Never Trumpers look like Birthers. (I think Trump earned his own birther movement, having started that campaign against Obama, but that's another issue.)
To your original point, we disagree. If Muller has Trump's tax returns he's under no obligation to release them; I personally don't care one way or the other if he does. That's opinion. There's nothing to argue about. The other points are interesting to me.
-
Working with a foreign government to misinform the American people is one thing, but giving that foreign government access to private voter information would be a serious crime, that's what's meant when people allege there was some collusion. Do you understand that a foreign power knew highly detailed information about American citizens and it's not clear how they were able to access that information?….Mueller could find that the Obama administration made a serious error and caused detailed voter information to get in the hands of that foreign government for all we know.
...How did a foreign power get personal voter data? Were they helped? Was it something caused by the previous administration? If so, will someone from that administration be held responsible? I find it ridiculous that people are so dead set on looking over the fact that serious attempts at actually hacking into voting machines were made and that securing our elections is some kind of joke. It's not a joke; which is why both parties came together and called it out and passed new sanctions against that foreign government. It's why there has been hearing after hearing on this. This is an American problem, not a left vs. right problem.
Let's break this into several manageable chunks.
- Collusion vs conspiracy. You keep mentioning Muller. He is not interested in collusion but conspiracy, cover up, and if there was anything criminal done during the election that people on the Right were part of. Every time you misuse collusion you send a signal that you're paying attention to a partisan press.
If you want to understand what real collusion looks like check out what happens when a US senator steps out of bounds to influence Nicaragua.
http://www.nytimes.com/1984/04/20/us/congress-letter-to-nicaragua-dear-comandante.htmlOr think back to the collusion between Stalin and Roosevelt on the post-WWII world.
There's even the alleged collusion between then Senator Kennedy and the KGB to undermine Regan (unproven).
Collusion is not what Muller is actively investigating – Russia and Trump did not set out to divide the US for Russia to rule by proxy. Muller is investigating whether or not Team Trump actively sought out help to undermine Hillary AND if there would be any legal statues broken vis a vie whatever proof they might find.
-
Your phrasing in, "[d]o you understand that a foreign power knew highly detailed information about American citizens" gives me the impression that Russian intelligence was directly targeting individual US citizens. To be honest, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I did a few Google searches and found nothing to hint at what you're implying.
-
Why aren't people more interested in this alleged story? Because the US has actively interfered with foreign governments, foreign government actively do this as well, and when you step back, the whole story looks like revenge for the Birther issue.
Every iteration of the US government actively tries to alter world politics. What do you think sanctions have been in Cuba, North Korea, Iran but a means to make the public rise against their leaders to pursue an agenda our elites prefer. Do and did Russia and China try to influence our elections? Absolutely. Did they? Sure, to a point. But they can only create fake news stories on Facebook. If the public has been conditioned over time to be believe everything they read and hear, that's neither collusion or conspiracy; it's stupidity, a wake-up call to teach people how to think critically.
From where I sit, people rallying around this idea of collusion are no different than those who maintained the birther (non) issue. And if you're a foreign person whose country has been affected by the US, you'd see a layer of irony on top of that.
For the sake of finding some common ground on this and moving on (since it's clear there's no intention to take a serious investigation seriously) I'll just say in conclusion, we will see what happens once the investigation ends. I've stated in my responses that nothing has yet been proven; therefore, I'm only going off of how guilty to president has been acting. I've also stated that if Mueller does not recommend charges, I believe everyone should let this go and move on. I've noticed for the past couple of months this has not been the main topic of news; healthcare and Hurricane relief have been, so the premise that this is all the left and MSM talks about is false anyway.
My only problem, like many others on the left, has been people like yourself dismissing a serious investigation that was launched almost unanimously by our elected officials of all parties and backed up by our intelligence agencies all to believe one president and his administration. If this administration knowingly aided a foreign power in obtaining personal voter data then they will be labeled as traitors. If this president has been involved in trying to cover up or obstruct any parts of the investigation, he should be held accountable. One thing's for sure, my "Lock Him Up" signature will remain until the investigation is over and no charges are recommended.
No, you are wrong. You have been pounding on this nothing burger of tax returns for over a year now. Trump did nothing wrong. There is no obligation to publish one's tax returns. Rachel Madcow did a much advertised special in which she ILLEGALLYbroadcast selected Trump tax returns (and didn't get punished for it). Your asinine photos on all of your messages shows Trump in prison. He hasn't even been CHARGED with anything. You haven't even suggested that Trump did anything that would put him in jail, yet you continue to do so. What you are doing falls under the category of libel / slander / defamation
Thank you for your input Frederick, I really appreciate it. :hug:
I'm so glad you approve! :thx:
Oh, I wholly disagree with what you're saying. I just don't want to be called childish names so I'm trying a different approach with you.
-
- Your phrasing in, "[d]o you understand that a foreign power knew highly detailed information about American citizens" gives me the impression that Russian intelligence was directly targeting individual US citizens. To be honest, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I did a few Google searches and found nothing to hint at what you're implying.
For the sake of finding some common ground on this and moving on (since it's clear there's no intention to take a serious investigation seriously) I'll just say in conclusion, we will see what happens once the investigation ends. I've stated in my responses that nothing has yet been proven; therefore, I'm only going off of how guilty to president has been acting. I've also stated that if Mueller does not recommend charges, I believe everyone should let this go and move on. I've noticed for the past couple of months this has not been the main topic of news; healthcare and Hurricane relief have been, so the premise that this is all the left and MSM talks about is false anyway.
My only problem, like many others on the left, has been people like yourself dismissing a serious investigation that was launched almost unanimously by our elected officials of all parties and backed up by our intelligence agencies all to believe one president and his administration. If this administration knowingly aided a foreign power in obtaining personal voter data then they will be labeled as traitors. If this president has been involved in trying to cover up or obstruct any parts of the investigation, he should be held accountable. One thing's for sure, my "Lock Him Up" signature will remain until the investigation is over and no charges are recommended.
From what I've seen in these threads, I'm the only person with an opposing side taking you seriously. To say I'm not is to deflect from the points I raised.
Since you've not called it collusion here, I'll assume you accept my point.
You still have not explained what you mean by "obtaining personal voting data".
And I explained why people aren't taking this seriously: Influencing elections is part of global politics and the Never Trumpers look like Birthers. (I think Trump earned his own birther movement, having started that campaign against Obama, but that's another issue.)
To your original point, we disagree. If Muller has Trump's tax returns he's under no obligation to release them; I personally don't care one way or the other if he does. That's opinion. There's nothing to argue about. The other points are interesting to me.
col·lu·sion
[kəˈlo͞oZHən]
NOUN
secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive othersIt is illegal to hack into voter data bases and it is illegal to hand over personal voter data in an attempt to increase one's chances of being elected as president. Personal voter data includes, party registration, addresses, phone numbers, email addresses and ID or voter card numbers. That level of personal information was used to target individuals and it's possible that Americans helped access and provide that information to a foreign power. That's the allegation being investigated by one part of Mueller's investigation and then there's the matter of trying to cover up the investigation that began prior to Mueller being appointed as special counsel. Are you not aware that two separate grand juries (one in Virginia, one in D.C.) are handling those two parts of the investigation?
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col·lu·sion
[kəˈlo͞oZHən]
NOUN
secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive othersIt is illegal to hack into voter data bases and it is illegal to hand over personal voter data in an attempt to increase one's chances of being elected as president. Personal voter data includes, party registration, addresses, phone numbers, email addresses and ID or voter card numbers. That level of personal information was used to target individuals and it's possible that Americans helped access and provide that information to a foreign power. That's the allegation being investigated by one part of Mueller's investigation and then there's the matter of trying to cover up the investigation that began prior to Mueller being appointed as special counsel. Are you not aware that two separate grand juries (one in Virginia, one in D.C.) are handling those two parts of the investigation?
Actually, the definition is more complex than what you posted.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/collusion
So what you've been trying to tell me is that someone on Team Trump passed voter info to a Russian agent in order to target small groups with precise advertising through social media such as Facebook and Twitter. Is that correct?
Well, the article you linked to said it best, it's going to take "years" to prove or disprove.
Let me give you a little advice on how to talk about this from someone very far removed. Most people aren't bright, which is why they could be swayed by fake news via social media. Do you really think these people understand the nuances in the word collusion? Use descriptives that are in everyday speech such as conspiracy and fraud. Treason would make you sound biased and collusion calls up partisan reporting.
So let's sum up:
We agree that Muller is investigating Russia for possible conspiracy to commit voter fraud by microtargeting individuals with fake advertisements/information in order to sway people on the fence to not vote Hillary or vote Trump.
People, like me, who find this a non-issue feel so because 1) manipulating election is part o global politics, 2) if a voter is dumb enough to believe a FB post there's nothing more that can be done (you can't fix stupid), 3) the (over) reaction from day one (think pink hats and protest) make this investigation seem like Trump's Birther Issue rather than a clear sign that something illegal happened.
And we simply disagree on whether Muller should release Trump's tax returns. I feel it's not an obligation for Trump to disclose them and you think tradition mandates that he must and Muller is the means.
Are we good?
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col·lu·sion
[kəˈlo͞oZHən]
NOUN
secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive othersIt is illegal to hack into voter data bases and it is illegal to hand over personal voter data in an attempt to increase one's chances of being elected as president. Personal voter data includes, party registration, addresses, phone numbers, email addresses and ID or voter card numbers. That level of personal information was used to target individuals and it's possible that Americans helped access and provide that information to a foreign power. That's the allegation being investigated by one part of Mueller's investigation and then there's the matter of trying to cover up the investigation that began prior to Mueller being appointed as special counsel. Are you not aware that two separate grand juries (one in Virginia, one in D.C.) are handling those two parts of the investigation?
Actually, the definition is more complex than what you posted.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/collusion
So what you've been trying to tell me is that someone on Team Trump passed voter info to a Russian agent in order to target small groups with precise advertising through social media such as Facebook and Twitter. Is that correct?
Well, the article you linked to said it best, it's going to take "years" to prove or disprove.
Let me give you a little advice on how to talk about this from someone very far removed. Most people aren't bright, which is why they could be swayed by fake news via social media. Do you really think these people understand the nuances in the word collusion? Use descriptives that are in everyday speech such as conspiracy and fraud. Treason would make you sound biased and collusion calls up partisan reporting.
So let's sum up:
We agree that Muller is investigating Russia for possible conspiracy to commit voter fraud by microtargeting individuals with fake advertisements/information in order to sway people on the fence to not vote Hillary or vote Trump.
People, like me, who find this a non-issue feel so because 1) manipulating election is part o global politics, 2) if a voter is dumb enough to believe a FB post there's nothing more that can be done (you can't fix stupid), 3) the (over) reaction from day one (think pink hats and protest) make this investigation seem like Trump's Birther Issue rather than a clear sign that something illegal happened.
And we simply disagree on whether Muller should release Trump's tax returns. I feel it's not an obligation for Trump to disclose them and you think tradition mandates that he must and Muller is the means.
Are we good?
It should be noted that in all the instances where voter fraud has been examined.. the vast number of incidents of fraud were on HILLARY'S side, not Trumps. Even if there was fraud, there is a time limit to challenge the veracity of the votes, and that deadline has passed. Furthermore, even if we assume that there was fraud.. there is no way there was enough fraud to change the outcome of he election.
With that said, anybody who knows history knows that in the 1960 election between Kennedy and Nixon, the only reason Kennedy won was because of mafia orchestrated voter fraud in Illinois. If not for that fraud, Nixon would have won Illinois - and the election. The mafia expected JFK to get senator Robert Kennedy off their ass in exchange for getting him elected. Instead, JFK made Bobby his attorney general - who then attacked the mafia - even resorting to violating the law to crush the mafia. Many people suggest that because of this, the mafia decided to send both JFK and RFK to sleep with the fishes. Many people also say that because of the known democratic fraud in the 1960 election, president Nixon authorized an illegal investigation into the democrats - called "Watergate". So essentially, the democrats committed a massive crime, and Nixon got destroyed for authorizing an illegal investigation into their crime. Bobby Kennedy never got into trouble for his illegal methods in investigating the mafia.. why? Because at the time, Bobby was the Attorney General of the USA! What was Bobby going to do? Give himself a spanking? I would further point out that the FBI is under the control of the Attorney General. How convenient? That fraud and corruption worked perfectly for JFK and RFK.. except for the fact that both of them got assassinated.
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col·lu·sion
[kəˈlo͞oZHən]
NOUN
secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive othersIt is illegal to hack into voter data bases and it is illegal to hand over personal voter data in an attempt to increase one's chances of being elected as president. Personal voter data includes, party registration, addresses, phone numbers, email addresses and ID or voter card numbers. That level of personal information was used to target individuals and it's possible that Americans helped access and provide that information to a foreign power. That's the allegation being investigated by one part of Mueller's investigation and then there's the matter of trying to cover up the investigation that began prior to Mueller being appointed as special counsel. Are you not aware that two separate grand juries (one in Virginia, one in D.C.) are handling those two parts of the investigation?
Actually, the definition is more complex than what you posted.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/collusion
So what you've been trying to tell me is that someone on Team Trump passed voter info to a Russian agent in order to target small groups with precise advertising through social media such as Facebook and Twitter. Is that correct?
Well, the article you linked to said it best, it's going to take "years" to prove or disprove.
Let me give you a little advice on how to talk about this from someone very far removed. Most people aren't bright, which is why they could be swayed by fake news via social media. Do you really think these people understand the nuances in the word collusion? Use descriptives that are in everyday speech such as conspiracy and fraud. Treason would make you sound biased and collusion calls up partisan reporting.
So let's sum up:
We agree that Muller is investigating Russia for possible conspiracy to commit voter fraud by microtargeting individuals with fake advertisements/information in order to sway people on the fence to not vote Hillary or vote Trump.
People, like me, who find this a non-issue feel so because 1) manipulating election is part o global politics, 2) if a voter is dumb enough to believe a FB post there's nothing more that can be done (you can't fix stupid), 3) the (over) reaction from day one (think pink hats and protest) make this investigation seem like Trump's Birther Issue rather than a clear sign that something illegal happened.
And we simply disagree on whether Muller should release Trump's tax returns. I feel it's not an obligation for Trump to disclose them and you think tradition mandates that he must and Muller is the means.
Are we good?
This came from the page of the link you posted:
{n. where two persons (or business entities through their officers or other employees) enter into a deceitful agreement, usually secret, to defraud and/or gain an unfair advantage over a third party, competitors, consumers or those with whom they are negotiating. Collusion can include secret price or wage fixing, secret rebates, or pretending to be independent of each other when actually conspiring together for their joint ends. It can range from small-town shopkeepers or heirs to a grandma's estate, to gigantic electronics companies or big league baseball team owners.}
"…pretending to be independent of each other when actually conspiring together for their joint ends," specifically applies to some of what could have happened during the election. How many times did we all hear Russia say, "we had nothing to do with anything," and #45 claimed it could have been a 400-pound person on a bed somewhere; meanwhile our intelligence agencies found otherwise?
He is investigating the attempts at voter fraud and the possibility that they were helped by Americans who wanted one candidate to win the election. I've stated that this whole thing could very well be a security screw up by the Obama administration. Hell, it could even be Hillary Clinton who caused all of this knowing that she'd lose the election because for the past few election cycles we've gone from Republican to Democrat, Democrat to Republican. It is possible that she obtained and handed over voter data to Russians and President Obama and his friends have been leaving breadcrumbs behind to frame this current president. Nothing is off the table here. Still, all of this is alleged and you are absolutely right, it could take years. No matter how long it takes, the truth will come out.
We disagree on what should happen with the taxes. He should release them because the deeper this goes, the more suspicious he will look. There were many people who assumed nothing would come of Watergate and Nixon spent much of his time claiming "fake news" and that the media "was after him." Look how well that turned out. Are there people that look at this as #45's birther issue? Yes, I have no doubt about it. For me, it's all about the truth. It will never sit right with me that he is the only president in modern history not to release his taxes because he's also the only president in modern history to come in with so many conflicts of interests and so many ties to the foreign power accused of working with him to attack our democracy.
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And now we understand one another and I (we?) came away with more than we started. No name calling. No tantrums. :hug:
-
col·lu·sion
[kəˈlo͞oZHən]
NOUN
secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive othersIt is illegal to hack into voter data bases and it is illegal to hand over personal voter data in an attempt to increase one's chances of being elected as president. Personal voter data includes, party registration, addresses, phone numbers, email addresses and ID or voter card numbers. That level of personal information was used to target individuals and it's possible that Americans helped access and provide that information to a foreign power. That's the allegation being investigated by one part of Mueller's investigation and then there's the matter of trying to cover up the investigation that began prior to Mueller being appointed as special counsel. Are you not aware that two separate grand juries (one in Virginia, one in D.C.) are handling those two parts of the investigation?
Actually, the definition is more complex than what you posted.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/collusion
So what you've been trying to tell me is that someone on Team Trump passed voter info to a Russian agent in order to target small groups with precise advertising through social media such as Facebook and Twitter. Is that correct?
Well, the article you linked to said it best, it's going to take "years" to prove or disprove.
Let me give you a little advice on how to talk about this from someone very far removed. Most people aren't bright, which is why they could be swayed by fake news via social media. Do you really think these people understand the nuances in the word collusion? Use descriptives that are in everyday speech such as conspiracy and fraud. Treason would make you sound biased and collusion calls up partisan reporting.
So let's sum up:
We agree that Muller is investigating Russia for possible conspiracy to commit voter fraud by microtargeting individuals with fake advertisements/information in order to sway people on the fence to not vote Hillary or vote Trump.
People, like me, who find this a non-issue feel so because 1) manipulating election is part o global politics, 2) if a voter is dumb enough to believe a FB post there's nothing more that can be done (you can't fix stupid), 3) the (over) reaction from day one (think pink hats and protest) make this investigation seem like Trump's Birther Issue rather than a clear sign that something illegal happened.
And we simply disagree on whether Muller should release Trump's tax returns. I feel it's not an obligation for Trump to disclose them and you think tradition mandates that he must and Muller is the means.
Are we good?
This came from the page of the link you posted:
{n. where two persons (or business entities through their officers or other employees) enter into a deceitful agreement, usually secret, to defraud and/or gain an unfair advantage over a third party, competitors, consumers or those with whom they are negotiating. Collusion can include secret price or wage fixing, secret rebates, or pretending to be independent of each other when actually conspiring together for their joint ends. It can range from small-town shopkeepers or heirs to a grandma's estate, to gigantic electronics companies or big league baseball team owners.}
"…pretending to be independent of each other when actually conspiring together for their joint ends," specifically applies to some of what could have happened during the election. How many times did we all hear Russia say, "we had nothing to do with anything," and #45 claimed it could have been a 400-pound person on a bed somewhere; meanwhile our intelligence agencies found otherwise?
He is investigating the attempts at voter fraud and the possibility that they were helped by Americans who wanted one candidate to win the election. I've stated that this whole thing could very well be a security screw up by the Obama administration. Hell, it could even be Hillary Clinton who caused all of this knowing that she'd lose the election because for the past few election cycles we've gone from Republican to Democrat, Democrat to Republican. It is possible that she obtained and handed over voter data to Russians and President Obama and his friends have been leaving breadcrumbs behind to frame this current president. Nothing is off the table here. Still, all of this is alleged and you are absolutely right, it could take years. No matter how long it takes, the truth will come out.
We disagree on what should happen with the taxes. He should release them because the deeper this goes, the more suspicious he will look. There were many people who assumed nothing would come of Watergate and Nixon spent much of his time claiming "fake news" and that the media "was after him." Look how well that turned out. Are there people that look at this as #45's birther issue? Yes, I have no doubt about it. For me, it's all about the truth. It will never sit right with me that he is the only president in modern history not to release his taxes because he's also the only president in modern history to come in with so many conflicts of interests and so many ties to the foreign power accused of working with him to attack our democracy.
… or to summarize.. the allegations of collusion are nothing but a nothing burger. In fact, until Van Jones of CNN said this.. he was a big shot at CNN.. since then, they have muzzled him. Van Jones called the collusion story a "Nothing Burger"
Youtube Video -
… or to summarize.. the allegations of collusion are nothing but a nothing burger. In fact, until Van Jones of CNN said this.. he was a big shot at CNN.. since then, they have muzzled him. Van Jones called the collusion story a "Nothing Burger"
Youtube VideoBut it's a nothing burger that people believe exists. Had Trump not made a big deal out of Obama's birth certificate, I'd be angry about the whole investigation. Seems to me he's getting payback. Also, the Republicans are getting a taste of obstruction aka payback.
I'm hoping that when it's all over both sides can let it go and get to running the country.
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And now we understand one another and I (we?) came away with more than we started. No name calling. No tantrums. :hug:
Yes, I can agree to that. Thank you for actually discussing this instead of name calling and tantrums. :hug:
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… or to summarize.. the allegations of collusion are nothing but a nothing burger. In fact, until Van Jones of CNN said this.. he was a big shot at CNN.. since then, they have muzzled him. Van Jones called the collusion story a "Nothing Burger"
Youtube VideoBut it's a nothing burger that people believe exists. Had Trump not made a big deal out of Obama's birth certificate, I'd be angry about the whole investigation. Seems to me he's getting payback. Also, the Republicans are getting a taste of obstruction aka payback.
I'm hoping that when it's all over both sides can let it go and get to running the country.
If it is a nothing burger once the investigation ends, it would be best for everyone to move on. I also believe if the president is successful with getting tax reform, the amount of extra stabilization it will bring to an already stabilizing market will overshadow anything the left even attempts to throw at him. It would truly change the direction of things. I'm heavily against major tax cuts for the wealthy, but I'll accept them if it means having a robust market that actually does create jobs and raises wages (would need to see immediate results of that). However, there needs to be a starting point with trust and only the president can lead on that front.
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… or to summarize.. the allegations of collusion are nothing but a nothing burger. In fact, until Van Jones of CNN said this.. he was a big shot at CNN.. since then, they have muzzled him. Van Jones called the collusion story a "Nothing Burger"
Youtube VideoBut it's a nothing burger that people believe exists. Had Trump not made a big deal out of Obama's birth certificate, I'd be angry about the whole investigation. Seems to me he's getting payback. Also, the Republicans are getting a taste of obstruction aka payback.
I'm hoping that when it's all over both sides can let it go and get to running the country.
If it is a nothing burger once the investigation ends, it would be best for everyone to move on. I also believe if the president is successful with getting tax reform, the amount of extra stabilization it will bring to an already stabilizing market will overshadow anything the left even attempts to throw at him. It would truly change the direction of things. I'm heavily against major tax cuts for the wealthy, but I'll accept them if it means having a robust market that actually does create jobs and raises wages (would need to see immediate results of that). However, there needs to be a starting point with trust and only the president can lead on that front.
No, it's a nothing burger until Mueller comes up with something.. and so far he has not.
I'd like to see someone investigate CNN for giving Hillary the presidential debate questions.. and also investigate Hillary for not revealing that she got the questions for the debate before the debate.
