Pope Emeritus (aka former Pope) Benedict XVI dead @ 95
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Pope Benedict XV! died at Mater Ecclesiae monastery, where he chose to spend his retirement, after "being very unwell for several days". There is no word on what he died from, other than "his old age complicated the matter".
There will be no autopsy, as it's forbidden for Popes.
Now that he's dead, the Vatican will now create and enshrine the rules and procedures for a Pope to resign and their retirement.
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dupe - deleted
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@raphjd said in Pope Emeritus (aka former Pope) Benedict XVI dead @ 95:
There is no word on what he died from, other than "his old age complicated the matter.".Perhaps one could also include guilt.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/lawsuit-against-pope-benedict-xvi-will-continue-despite-death
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Yeah, he was a mean old bastard.
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@flozen Dumb commentary.
First - A death at 95 needs no explanation and merits no gloating from opponents. If anything, it's a personal "win" & shows lack of guilt. We should all be lucky to live as long.
Second - People who know the inside baseball, know that actually Benedict was one of the nicer & saner people, both for gays & for fighting clerical abuse. Catholic inside baseball gets very very very complicated, the public images statements accusations & lawsuits very different from who's who behind the scenes.
Not defending it. Only pointing out that nobody can ever know everything, and here, you sure don't. Not that I would know all either, so enough said.
Benedict R.I.P.
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@blablarg18 Having you call my comment "dumb" is high praise, indeed, considering your vague and content-free deflections here.
I agree with raph's observation above, that Benedict was a "mean old bastard" -- odd that you are absent an opinion on that, as well.
Final comment on above: Good to learn that "A death at 95,,, shows lack of guilt." That's a triumph of religious mumbo-jumbo logic.
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@flozen Brave face but we both know that the fact you were stung enough to respond to me, is the high praise here.
Thank you. Glad I could teach you a moment & it prob won't stick, but let's hope.
Re: @raphjd, I took his comment as sarcasm against your commentary - but whatever, it's up to him & I don't really care.
Again: Benedict R.I.P. ..........and while we're at it, Cardinal Pell R.I.P. too - pretty weird story there, with his conviction & then it being all reversed out - the point would be, none of us know. I don't, you don't. Catholic "deep politics" is every bit as twisted & nothing-is-as-it-seems, as Anglo-American.
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I was stating my opinion on him, as you rightly said.
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@raphjd I'm aware of the "gay case against Benedict" but gays generally know little of the wider picture, so here's a few points fyi.
As a young theologian he was the key liberal, yes LIBERAL, voice at Vatican II in the early 1960s.
Modern Catholic doctrine, insisting that gays must always be treated with dignity & respect for the person, even as doctrine still treats gay (and straight!!) fornicating lusts as "disordered" - That was him.
As time went by, he did become a "liberal mugged by reality" ie. more centrist or tradition-friendly as his liberal illusions were overturned. Sound familiar?
By Church standards, he didn't go far rightward. But the fact he made any rightward shift at all made his name poison to vicious Church leftists. Sound familiar?
He was mainly a theologian and tried more than once to leave Church politics or avoid being Pope. JP2 & others demanded that he stay involved.
The current papal resident, Francis, is a 100% Covidist-globalist-commie, beloved by Davos/WEF/Hillary types, tries to appear more moderate than he is, and election was/is fraught with questions. Sound familiar? (cough Biden)
People who follow this stuff say that Benedict was actually better day to day at hounding clerical pedophiles, while Francis protects most of them - while making a show of the opposite, pursuing his own opponents in a high-publicity, selective way with weaponized (or even faked) accusations. Sound familiar?
You can think what you want of course.
And I don't love Benedict. Nor claim to know everything.
As with Trump, the fact that I want criticisms to be rational & will speak the other side of the story, makes me a supposed "supporter" - Not really.
Stamping on Benedict's grave tho is in zone between Unseemly & Uninformed.
Benedict R.I.P.
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@blablarg18 said in Pope Emeritus (aka former Pope) Benedict XVI dead @ 95:
I don't ... claim to know everything.
Your post suggests otherwise.
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@eobox91103 Nope! It merely says "Here's some other info / another story".
Reality is a vast mosaic, none of us get to see it all.
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@blablarg18 said in Pope Emeritus (aka former Pope) Benedict XVI dead @ 95:
Reality is a vast mosaic, none of us get to see it all.
Very true! I sometimes use the metaphor of people standing in a circle around an elephant--no one person gets the full concept.
I think it would help the discussion if there were some links or references, especially when an assertion like, "As a young theologian he [Ratzinger] was the key liberal voice at the Vatican." This is not the presumed narrative, so a link to something he wrote/published in that time frame would be very useful.
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@eobox91103 small correction - I didn't say "at the Vatican", rather, "at Vatican 2" the big-deal, liberalizing Chuch council of the early 1960s.
Continuing... But in today's fractured world, I don't know what link/source you would consider valid.
Here's one:
https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/ratzinger-vatican-ii
I don't know about this magazine, merely that the link turned up quickly in a search for "ratzinger theologian vatican 2".
I know that as Pope, he repudiated none of Vatican 2 - merely said to balance it a little more with respect for tradition.
And I've seen people who followed his long career & read his books & articles over decades say, yes he was very much a liberal, then later dialed it back slightly.
So I believe this magazine's story - on the grounds that it's consistent with other stuff I have heard or observed.
Wiki lists it as a well-established "liberal Catholic" magazine............. for whatever that's worth
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@blablarg18 said in Pope Emeritus (aka former Pope) Benedict XVI dead @ 95:
https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/ratzinger-vatican-ii
I don't know about this magazine, merely that the link turned up quickly in a search for "ratzinger theologian vatican 2".Thanks for the link. Commonweal is a reliable source; I remember reading/citing it several times as an undergrad.
The article shows that Ratzinger was what would be considered "liberal" in the 1960's, but definitely changed his views. Those who do forensic psychology could have a field day in examining his motivation.
He will probably be remembered in LGBT circles for his 1986 letter On the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons (https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html ). On a first read of that document, people saw hope when he said that homosexual orientation might not be a choice "in certain cases," and thus the person would not be culpable for engaging in homosexual activity. Unfortunately, he went on to insist that all such activity was "objectively disordered." It's a bit like saying "you were born a bird, and thus the desire to fly is not wrong, but if you do fly, it's a sin." (This bird metaphor is admittedly an oversimplification of the interplay between the very complex topics of free will and sin.)
While I am not a member of the Catholic church, I probably have more respect for it than most LGBT people. I also respect LGBT people who have a long family and cultural rooting in Catholicism, and thus live a difficult life with one foot in each community. My first partner was among that group, and life was a challenge for him.
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@eobox91103 said in Pope Emeritus (aka former Pope) Benedict XVI dead @ 95:
@blablarg18 said in Pope Emeritus (aka former Pope) Benedict XVI dead @ 95:
Reality is a vast mosaic, none of us get to see it all.
True enough for many aspects of life. But in the case of Ratzinger and his pedophile chessboard actions, advanced legal systems (from which he was well protected) try to ascertain whether guilt can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. A judge or jury follows the demonstrable facts, witness testimony, etc. and arrives at a conclusion based on the preponderance of credible evidence.
I think it would help the discussion if there were some links or references,
I agree, brother eobox, so to my point above:
Pope Benedict and the pedophilia scandal: A timeline
https://theweek.com/articles/495712/pope-benedict-pedophilia-scandal-timeline
Former pope Benedict admits making false claim to child sexual abuse inquiry
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/24/former-pope-benedict-statement-child-sexual-abuse-inquiry
Pope Benedict XVI implicated in report on sexual abuse in German diocese
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/pope-benedict-xvi-implicated-in-report-on-sexual-abuse-in-german-diocese
Benedict was criticized for his handling of the church’s sex abuse scandal.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/31/world/europe/pope-emeritus-benedict-xvi-sex-abuse-scandal.html
Pope Emeritus Benedict attended meeting where pedophile priest's transfer was discussed
https://www.foxnews.com/world/pope-benedict-pedophile-priest-transfer
Pope’s child porn 'normal' claim sparks outrage among victims
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/popes-child-porn-normal-claim-sparks-outrage-among-victims-28577483.html#ixzz19fdmXHF4
Benedict's brief papacy was marred by the priest sex abuse scandal
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/pope-benedict-church-priest-sex-abuse-scandal-rcna63525 *
(*Note: some defense of Ratz in the one above!)
Victims: Pope Benedict Protects Accused Pedophile Bishops
https://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4656143
Leaked church report accuses Pope Benedict of clerical abuse cover-up
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/leaked-church-report-accuses-pope-benedict-of-clerical-abuse-cover-up-1.4769611A list of entities and publications supporting Ratzinger can also be drawn up, from highly impartial sources such as catholic.org -- scroll past the donation plea:
Debunking the myth: Actually, Pope Benedict XVI defrocked a record number of priests
https://www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=53930As far as Ratzinger sweeping out a record # of pedos as Pope -- was that really a hard # to beat? And it doesn't excuse away his inaction -- or worse yet, action! -- during his continuity as Pope, Cardinal and Archbishop.
And one can find scads of supporting material in the links above.
If anyone wants to address Ratzinger and his unwavering opposition to gay marriage and overall equality, feel free to start a corresponding thread. Here's one to get you started:
Former Pope Benedict XVI Just Connected Gay Marriage With The Antichrist
https://www.newsweek.com/former-pope-benedict-xvi-just-connected-gay-marriage-antichrist-1501835Have a blessed day.
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@flozen I'm not at all defending Ratzinger as Benedict XVI. While he might have been a "theoretical theology liberal" in the 1960's, when he put on a white dress in 2005 he permitted and/or caused a great deal of damage. He certainly had lots of help within the hierarchy in doing this, but as with any bureaucracy, the buck stops at the top.
The whole pedophilia mess is scandalously bungled at every level. (Side note: I have friends who were molested by clerics, and a high school classmate of mine became a priest-pedophile and is now living in Costa Rica or some some place outside of extradition.) One aspect of the social tragedy is that the RC church had/has no monopoly on child molestation--it might be the most public face of it, but some studies (and I don't have a handy reference) say that the most prevalent situations of molestation are schools and families.
In a more perfect world, the RC church could have tried to come clean and say, essentially, "yes, we fucked up, and we're going to clean house. We also want to help the other institutions in society clean their houses." That's obviously not what happened, and the disaster continues. I don't know how it will get fixed. I will say that if I had a child who was being molested by a priest/teacher/scout-leader, etc., I would probably take some rather direct action.
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@eobox91103 Again, I'm familiar with the "gay case against Benedict" and furnishing another side of the story.
Again, you're not mentioning his insistence that the gay person always be treated with respect as a person trying to live a life. In 1980s (height of AIDS) that was a signal for many Catholics to chill, get a tad more pro-gay or less anti-gay. Benedict among others, did that.
Sidebar - it's worth mentioning that traditional Catholic doctrine is, in their own view, equally hard on straights & gays ie. non-discriminatory.
Don't say "straights could get married" - because, in traditional Catholic doctrine, even properly married straights are not supposed to have sex UNLESS trying to conceive a child.
Yup. That rough. Single straights are called to celibacy, as are married ones who aren't intent on children. Their lusts & fornications, even with each other, are also disordered / sinful.
I'm not endorsing the trad-cath view, merely explaining. Traditional Catholics are mystified, if you accuse them of discriminating or being tougher on gays. "Everyone's a sinner. We're hard on everyone" mentality.
Overall - Benedict was a major, historic person in liberalizing the Church - and you're saying he did some sort of special damage as Pope.
I can't account for that, except as "Oh there goes the typical incomplete, parochial, gay-lib-tribal viewpoint again, example 1 million."
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@eobox91103 I know you're not defending and sorry if my post or links made you believe otherwise. You're a constant source of reason. Thanks for sharing what must be difficult memories of friends impacted by this travesty and tragedy.
And agreed that the problem extends far beyond one individual or organized religion. I'm trying to hold to the thread, or we could go on until the Second Coming -- soon to be released on DVD with bonus features!
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@flozen said in Pope Emeritus (aka former Pope) Benedict XVI dead @ 95:
I know you're not defending and sorry if my post or links made you believe otherwise.
No worries--I probably shouldn't have clicked the "reply to you" option on that message. I appreciate your steady hand in these discussions and the quality of your posts. I don't think you could ever offend me, but please don't take that as a challenge.
@blaberg said in Pope Emeritus (aka former Pope) Benedict XVI dead @ 95
you're saying he did some sort of special damage as Pope. I can't account for that, except as "Oh there goes the typical incomplete, parochial, gay-lib-tribal viewpoint again, example 1 million.
Oh dear. This sounds like the kind of excrement that one finds in the "Politics and Debate" section. I said above that have respect for the RC church, probably more than most LGBT people. But the fact remains that the church continues to do great damage to LGBT people, and Bennie15 did nothing to stop that.
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@eobox91103 "did nothing to stop" - On your own terms, ignoring anything I said: You just equated Benedict to all popes, conceding that he did no unique or exceptional damage.
I also can't think of any unique or exceptional (read that twice) way the Church damages gay people.
Sexual abuse? Yes that's bad, bad, gotta stop - and you concede schools do as much or more of it. Let's add that LGBT themselves do quite a lot. Bad yes, unique no.
Disagreeing that gay sex is good? That can't be the problem - because then I'd have to tell you boo hoo, grow up.
Especially nowadays, the Church's opinion on anything only affects people if they want it to.
And again, B16 (not 15) Ratzinger actually nudged things forward. The typical gay lib just isn't prepared to see or admit it; "Everyone hates me especially the Church" is too much ingrained in the gay-lib identity / tribalism / substitute religion. More here: https://community.gaytorrent.ru/topic/60694/the-libs-kooky-world-of-hate
