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At other occasions I've already mentioned my bad feeling about these racial categories and tags. As you saw, I agree with you that there should be as well tags for "people like me" with a rather light skin tone (if you like, close to a modern house pig skin).
You are as well right in pointing out that "European" isn't the right term either, because it got as well a geographical / political dimension and all people born and/or grown up in Europe are Europeans. Remembers as well my doubt expressed of the ~euros tag meaning.
Any person born in France is usually French and distinguishing by race terms is politically incorrect here. Nevertheless there is fro example a Gay Tea Dance called "Blanc Black Beur" (White , Black and Butter", where Beur is what are called born French with roots from North Africa). That tea dance is 90% Beur and organized by them.However in my eyes the "Caucasian" term falls in the same category as the by you mentioned "Negroid" and "Mongoloid" terms, though certainly less pejorative.
The question for me is not if, but what is / are the right term(s) to use for the type of people you call Caucasian. Sorry the best I could find is "White".
This "race" based categorisations / tagging is really slippery ground. I feel not comfortable with it, but understand that it is meant as a help for members having a preference for a certain type of guys.
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However in my eyes the "Caucasian" term falls in the same category as the by you mentioned "Negroid" and "Mongoloid" terms
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Unlike Negroid and Mongoloid terms Europeans chose to denote themselves as Caucasians According to the Wikipedia entry you cited, a German anthropologist coined the term in the 1800 to define ethnicity of Europeans.
The question for me is not if, but what is / are the right term(s) to use for the type of people you call Caucasian.
I ponder the use of ~blacks for very light-skinned mixed raced blacks with freckles. ~blacks is generally used to describe a body type of a person usually with thicker lips and broader noses no matter how light-skinned they are.
A.
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Unlike Negroid and Mongoloid terms Europeans chose to denote themselves as Caucasians According to the Wikipedia entry you cited, a German anthropologist coined the term in the 1800 to define ethnicity of Europeans.
...That is a term of long gone times, the article starts saying "… has been used..." it does not say ."...is used..." If I understood right rather meant as categorization of pre-historic men kinds and a theory about our origin? I don't think that that scientist denoted himself as Caucasian.
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Unlike you I have not nor will I ever categorize myself by race or ethnicity. I think it's repugnant. However I do understand the spirit of how these tags are being used here to help our brothers find content that appeals to them. I also respect you desire to find a racial tag that more appropriately identifies the race you ascribe to yourself. It obvious that there's something taboo about the calling people "white" because theirs no tag for it here although you've infer you are and might share that racial make-up with "white Americans and Australians."
What get's me is that until I mentioned it there wasn't a tag for whites like their was for nearly every other so called non-white guy. IOW until I mentioned no one thought of an ethnicity tag for whites? Yet no one voiced an objection to the use of blacks and Asians tags to denote people the same way "Negroid" and "Mongoloid" were formerly used with all the inappropriateness of their former connotations.
To sum up I strongly believe all racial tags based on Caucasian, Negroid or Mongoloid are offensive to diversity of all humanity. So unless we're going to investigate ALL racial tags being used here and their appropriateness in being applied to those groups I honestly don't see this discussion moving beyond your personal suggestion that my use of Caucasian is wrong. No matter how often you cite Wikipedia. I can cite references that support that "the idea of "race" has always carried more meanings than mere physical differences; indeed, physical variations in the human species have no meaning except the social ones that humans put on them." hxxp://www.aaanet.org/stmts/racepp.htm
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It is YOU who pushed me to categorize myself as "European" or "White" and it appears to be a trap. Usually I don't use a race attribute for myself, but a nationality attribute "European" and the nation of which I hold a passport.
My objection is only against "Caucasian", I can life with "White" or even "Pink" if people want to give such attributes to me.
I've as well already expressed earlier that I don't feel comfortable with any race categorisation, that it is slippery ground, politically incorrect and that there should be a tag for "white", too as to treat all equal. You try to push me into a corner I don't want to be.
BTW: Why are you using "race" tags in your uploads? Nobody is forcing you to use them
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If you want a tag for ~white then advocate for it and stop trying to argue with me about what you want to be called. It's never been about YOU. It's about the casts of the videos and works I/We upload. To not have adequate tags for the specific ETHNICITY of whites/Caucasians whether they resided in Europe or abroad was a glaring omission. I merely pointed out that omission and suggested a correction.
It's your faulty racial rhetoric entrapped you. And if you truly feel that way this discussion can serve no further purpose. If you don't like racial/ethnicity tags then don't use them. Or use the tags you prefer. I know I'm NOT using these tags the manner in which White supremacists of the past used them. The negative socio-political overtones you're attempting infer only applies to use of ~Caucasian while attempting to ignore they ALSO existed for ~blacks, ~latinos and ~Asians too is what completely boggles my mind. I'm puzzled why you're even engaging in such a NO WIN argument. It seem to me like you only care about racial tags when they can be applied to YOU.
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If you want a tag for ~white then advocate for it and stop trying to argue with me about what you want to be called. It's never been about YOU. It's about the casts of the videos and works I/We upload. To not have adequate tags for the specific ETHNICITY of whites/Caucasians whether they resided in Europe or abroad was a glaring omission. I merely pointed out that omission and suggested a correction.
I didn't advocate for ~whites, because I am not sure if it is appropriate than ~caucasians. You ignore totally that since my first answer I've said that I agree with you that there should be a tag for what you name ~caucasians
It's your faulty racial rhetoric entrapped you. And if you truly feel that way this discussion can serve no further purpose. If you don't like racial/ethnicity tags then don't use them. Or use the tags you prefer. I know I'm NOT using these tags the manner in which White supremacists of the past used them. The negative socio-political overtones you're attempting infer only applies to use of ~Caucasian while attempting to ignore they ALSO existed for ~blacks, ~latinos and ~Asians too is what completely boggles my mind. I'm puzzled why you're even engaging in such a NO WIN argument.
Well your rhetoric entraps you as well
It seem to me like you only care about racial tags when they can be applied to YOU.
That is what you get from here, because indeed I feel directly involved as being part of group called ~caucasians by you ( a term I personally don't like). Hoping to stop it being added right away and have some larger membership expressing what they think about ~caucasians tag or another possible tags for that lack. Unfortunately there is no other participation than you and me.
In general, I think new tags shouldn't been added just because there is a single request for it, there should be a reflection about what is the best general term, avoiding micro tags, to much overlapping etc… For example ~Timberlands isn't a good tag IMHO, because it uses a brand. Shall we promote a brand? But then what is the right generic term for such boots? "Work boots? no idea ...
However what you can't see, is for example a recent internal staff discussion about a new category, where from the start of my participation I've expressed my bad feeling about this type of tags (and then participated what could be the right
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Now I think we should start an internal discussion about another new category -
That is what you get from here, because indeed I feel directly involved as being part of group called ~caucasians by you ( a term I personally don't like). Hoping to stop it being added right away and have some larger membership expressing what they think about ~caucasians tag or another possible tags for that lack. Unfortunately there is no other participation than you and me.
Why? Is anyone uploading any works with you in them?
This has been my critique of your motivation all along. If you object to ~Caucasians and don't not object to the use of other racial tags like ~blacks or ~Asians I believe your argument is flawed.
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Hey guys
This race discussion won't bring anything good, each of you two will answer the other one and it will get worse.
We all read your arguments (i read you 3 times now) and understood what you both meant.
I'm sure both of you aren't happy the way this topic goes now, so why not stop answering (please) ?It's not a sign of weakness to stop arguing, even if you both think are right.
On the contrary, it shows a mental strength ("i can stop answering even if i think i'm right and i will stop answering right now because i would like things to calm down")Please staff, discuss it internally and choose the best word who will agree to the majority of you, update the list and everybody will be happy again.
Hugs to (alphabetical order lol) Aiweelie & Uwe :hug2:
Not forgetting our unforgettable Leatherbear ! :hug: -
Blackdid.
Uwe and I are guilty of nothing more than having a discussion about a very complex topic. Neither of us have been uncivil to one another. I believe this discussion is important because it could lead to something beyond racial categories or something better than ~Caucasians that means people who have traditionally associated those living in the Western part of the Northern Hemisphere.
I welcome your opinions but not like this. Hiding behind some anonymous "we." Other than you who is part of your "we"?
Hey guys
This race discussion won't bring anything good, each of you two will answer the other one and it will get worse.
We all read your arguments (i read you 3 times now) and understood what you both meant.
I'm sure both of you aren't happy the way this topic goes now, so why not stop answering (please) ?It's not a sign of weakness to stop arguing, even if you both think are right.
On the contrary, it shows a mental strength ("i can stop answering even if i think i'm right and i will stop answering right now because i would like things to calm down")Please staff, discuss it internally and choose the best word who will agree to the majority of you, update the list and everybody will be happy again.
Hugs to (alphabetical order lol) Aiweelie & Uwe :hug2:
Not forgetting our unforgettable Leatherbear ! :hug: -
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This has been my critique of your motivation all along. If you object to ~Caucasians and don't not object to the use of other racial tags like ~blacks or ~Asians I believe your argument is flawed.That is simply NOT what I ever expressed here.
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might i make a suggestion?
Since this is a tagging mechanism, it would automatically try to group torrents into certain groups. and as "groups" there should be a label because if we don't label it then people wouldn't know what the tag was.
Maybe we can agree not to be offended if terms like white, black, latino, asian, or caucasian were used, depending on what the moderators decide? Not everything has to be taken offensively, or even personally.
Would be sad if we defined ourselves solely by the tags that are present on this site.
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I welcome your opinions but not like this. Hiding behind some anonymous "we." Other than you who is part of your "we"?
Hi aiweelie,
"we" meant nothing special.
I simply had in mind the 288 users who read this topic at the exact time I wrote this sentence -
Hi guys,
PLEASE calm down a bit - all of you who offer their opininions about this "race" discussions. Please understand one thing as the most important thing about our torrent categories and/or search tags: They are not meant as an exact ethnological/geographical/ <put here="" what="" you="" like="">exact definition. Not at all. At the start of this site we just had around 10 different categories which have now grown to 30 - and there is a problem now rising how to distinguish a new category from the existing ones. Just an example from our recent staff discussion. How to distinguish men from the (now come just geographical terms:)western Asian lets say from turkey up to the (still to be defined) border to east Asia (China, Japan, … as an example) but including north-afrika ? IMHOthose people in the named regions have a lot of similarities which differ from east-asian people.
Now: How to name such a category so that all of our members have a "correct" understanding which type of men are meant to be found in such a category? If we include the "political correctness" in such a debate - been there, done that - hopeless. If we additionally add the topic of "racism" in such a debate: a flame war is approaching all of us.
Please, be also aware the most Europeans (geographically only) and especially Germans have a lot of problems with such terms. Calling "us" racists has (even today) a very strong pejorative background for us who did not yet forget the past from 60 years ago - real Nazism from where a lot of people still have inherited their aversion against racist discussions - in Germany we had those bad discussions more than enough in the past since 1930 or even 1920)! Sorry, but also that is part of the current discussion, at least below the surface.
I admit too that political correctness might be a good thing - I just think that term should belong to the department politics or politicians - not to a gay BitTorrent site.
Bottom line: we should try to find (in this case) a search tag which can rather exactly describe what is meant to be found when you use such a tag but not express any racist or pejorative meaning.
Because the topic arose in this discussion earlier: the current torrent categories / search tags are not meant to express racism or insults - but to express a difference in appearance at the first glance - to express it a bit more "political correct".
BTW: the "political correctness" especially in Germany gets more absurd each and every day. Not only new words are invented "Kanzlerin" for "Kanzler" (female chancellor (chanceloress?) instead of chancellor), there are no foreigners any longer in Germany, only "people with migration background" ..., this list of political correctness is endless - I ask a native German speaker to give me a political correct English translation for the former "Negerkuss" or even a former "Mohrenkopf" !!!). I don't intend to continue that list with our categories or search tags :)</put>
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@ mgr ~ Thanks so much for adding to this thread.
The term Caucasian is adequate for our purposes here me thinks. Perhaps we need to add some others as well. That remains for the future discussions of this subject I guess.
I personally hate labels in life but we can not, at this time is history, get away from such labeling. Like with the torrents, labels help us to define a subject at times. As long as a label is applied with out some hate attached then we must be content. It is the hate that is used with labels that is the evil here not the label itself.
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I believe this discussion is important because it could lead to something beyond racial categories or something better than ~Caucasians that means people who have traditionally associated those living in the Western part of the Northern Hemisphere.
...I support fully the above statement, that was the only thing intended by me.
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@Uwe:
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I believe this discussion is important because it could lead to something beyond racial categories or something better than ~Caucasians that means people who have traditionally associated those living in the Western part of the Northern Hemisphere.
...I support fully the above statement, that was the only thing intended by me.
If we all can agree that this discussion is only about category-names or search-tags and nobody intends to have a discussion about racism or something similar nor insists on his own understanding of political correntness which has to be applied also on gay-porn classification: Thank you guys - I can sleep a bit calmer in the future
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This is a wonderful tagging system and I enjoy using it. I never meant anything pejorative in suggesting the ~Caucasian tag. I suggested the tag out of necessity and its commonly understood meaning. What this conversation has always boiled down to me was the efficiency of a tag to index torrent content versus personal preference. ~Caucasian is not a perfect term. However, despite its heritage it's a very efficient tag for indexing the people commonly associated with its meaning.
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@mgr:
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I believe this discussion is important because it could lead to something beyond racial categories or something better than ~Caucasians that means people who have traditionally associated those living in the Western part of the Northern Hemisphere.
...I support fully the above statement, that was the only thing intended by me.
If we all can agree that this discussion is only about category-names or search-tags and nobody intends to have a discussion about racism or something similar nor insists on his own understanding of political correntness which has to be applied also on gay-porn classification: Thank you guys - I can sleep a bit calmer in the future
I always believed that's what we were discussing. We were attempting to illustrate our respective views and contrast how we could move forward. I think it would be great if we could use skin tone as tags but I don't know how efficient it would be. Blacks in Americas have a wonderful vocabulary for describing shades of skin tones. One of my favorites is called "redbone" which is a pinkish light-skinned African American. I don't know how to categorize Asians. The shade I think most of associate with yellow-skin is actually a mixture of olive skin and a light tan. Lots of light-skinned Hispanic have a similar shading.
As we evolve I'm sure we come up with something.
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i'm open to using terms such as white, latino, black, and the like. i wouldn't be too happy with as a tag, though. just my thought.
