Germany forced to bail out bankrupt countries like Spain and Greece
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Possibly. I do remember other events though and i could mention them but out of respect to my fellow German users, i won't.
In this forum, i prefer to see the brighter aspects of communication with other people.
I refuse to use norticblue's slimy tactics.I don't see him being "slimy" but wanting to create discussions/debate.
We need good (emotionless) debates going on here to liven up the forums.
I'm not against bailing others out, but I want you and other in those bailed out countries to understand that bailing you out hasn't been easy on us, when you complain about the bailout. On various forums, I've seen people in the bailed out countries getting nasty toward the people in the countries that bailed them out. THIS IS COMPLETELY WRONG.
My standard of living has crashed due to the UK bailing out other countries and constantly having to help top up the Euro.
I understand and empathise with your points, you are completely right in what you are saying, let me just point where those worse reactions were coming from, imagine a country like portugal who was average and not at it's best when finland actually needed support some decades ago, we gave to them the support at our own cost (like you are doing now)… this time when we needed the first help they were the stronger opposition if you remenber, so it was coming from there too, and in the case of greece and germany it's the same, greece funded germany when it was broke, they never had to pay it back... so again conflict. Surely it did not became overly dramatic and was dealt with, again it's not a hate on the people but more on the institutions, in my particular case it's a clear see-how-this-idiots-don't-have-a-clue-about-what-they-are-doing specially the bank system... the country had to sold what actually gave it profit, to follow troika guidelines... that is no way to run or help a country in the long term. A bunch of shitty short term ways to get cash to pay up by empoverishment athat helped noone, surely it made people hate furthermore... if they actually managed instead of killing inner markets to make the jobs and companies stronger and more secure and destroy the grey economics and reduce the state fat, it all would change, surely a country like mine can't have what our politics get in salaries pensions and benefits neither the whole luxury car fleet and so on... did they cut that? NO THEY MULTIPLIED. Sorry we do get your point because we felt it also, but it's so frustating to have to basically wait to get most of our political class in jail.
I think most politicians should be sent to prison for treason, for what they have done to their individual countries. This also includes the money grubbing MEPs in the EU.
The Euro is a massive failure, which is harming the UK's economy and well being, as we have to keep bailing it out. I'm sure it's harming most other countries that have involvement in it.
In the UK, business rates (taxes simply for existing as a business) are strangling small mom and pop sized businesses. Major shopping areas are turning into ghost towns. Retail property owners find they are better off tax wise keeping their shops empty, than renting them out.
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Possibly. I do remember other events though and i could mention them but out of respect to my fellow German users, i won't.
In this forum, i prefer to see the brighter aspects of communication with other people.
I refuse to use norticblue's slimy tactics.I don't see him being "slimy" but wanting to create discussions/debate.
We need good (emotionless) debates going on here to liven up the forums.
I'm not against bailing others out, but I want you and other in those bailed out countries to understand that bailing you out hasn't been easy on us, when you complain about the bailout. On various forums, I've seen people in the bailed out countries getting nasty toward the people in the countries that bailed them out. THIS IS COMPLETELY WRONG.
My standard of living has crashed due to the UK bailing out other countries and constantly having to help top up the Euro.
I understand and empathise with your points, you are completely right in what you are saying, let me just point where those worse reactions were coming from, imagine a country like portugal who was average and not at it's best when finland actually needed support some decades ago, we gave to them the support at our own cost (like you are doing now)… this time when we needed the first help they were the stronger opposition if you remenber, so it was coming from there too, and in the case of greece and germany it's the same, greece funded germany when it was broke, they never had to pay it back... so again conflict. Surely it did not became overly dramatic and was dealt with, again it's not a hate on the people but more on the institutions, in my particular case it's a clear see-how-this-idiots-don't-have-a-clue-about-what-they-are-doing specially the bank system... the country had to sold what actually gave it profit, to follow troika guidelines... that is no way to run or help a country in the long term. A bunch of shitty short term ways to get cash to pay up by empoverishment athat helped noone, surely it made people hate furthermore... if they actually managed instead of killing inner markets to make the jobs and companies stronger and more secure and destroy the grey economics and reduce the state fat, it all would change, surely a country like mine can't have what our politics get in salaries pensions and benefits neither the whole luxury car fleet and so on... did they cut that? NO THEY MULTIPLIED. Sorry we do get your point because we felt it also, but it's so frustating to have to basically wait to get most of our political class in jail.
I think most politicians should be sent to prison for treason, for what they have done to their individual countries. This also includes the money grubbing MEPs in the EU.
The Euro is a massive failure, which is harming the UK's economy and well being, as we have to keep bailing it out. I'm sure it's harming most other countries that have involvement in it.
In the UK, business rates (taxes simply for existing as a business) are strangling small mom and pop sized businesses. Major shopping areas are turning into ghost towns. Retail property owners find they are better off tax wise keeping their shops empty, than renting them out.
He could have done that without insulting a very sensitive matter regarding my country's efforts to get out of it's economic turbulance.
He practically depicted Greece as a money sacking leech. -
You have been the only one making personal attacks. I posted general news that is completely true. Germany and "responsible" countries have bailed out "irresponsible" ones. Responsible being the keyword here. Why is it that the UK, Germany, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Belgium and the Netherlands are doing well, while Spain, Greece, Portugal and Cyprus flounder and spend themselves into an apparent oblivion of tax debt set at 170%+ of their GDP. If you think Greece deserves to do this, why don't you pay my tax bill when I abscond with funds. I didn't think so. This shouldn't have to happen. I don't know why you are standing up for the politicians who have apparently robbed you blind. The taxpayers of these responsible countries pay high taxes, have much fewer government funded amenities than Greece and have a higher retirement age to boot. That is what is takes to finance them. They especially do not enjoy having their tax dollars rerouting to foreign countries who do not know how easy they had it.
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You have been the only one making personal attacks. I posted general news that is completely true. Germany and "responsible" countries have bailed out "irresponsible" ones. Responsible being the keyword here. Why is it that the UK, Germany, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Belgium and the Netherlands are doing well, while Spain, Greece, Portugal and Cyprus flounder and spend themselves into an apparent oblivion of tax debt set at 170%+ of their GDP. If you think Greece deserves to do this, why don't you pay my tax bill when I abscond with funds. I didn't think so. This shouldn't have to happen. I don't know why you are standing up for the politicians who have apparently robbed you blind. The taxpayers of these responsible countries pay high taxes, have much fewer government funded amenities than Greece and have a higher retirement age to boot. That is what is takes to finance them. They especially do not enjoy having their tax dollars rerouting to foreign countries who do not know how easy they had it.
First of all, that is what he finds offensive, the bold part, do you think it was easy… you have no clue... the unemployement, the massive poverty, the struggling with 3 jobs? The majority of cash went to the banks it never reached to help the people, yes because under those numbers there are faces and lifes destroyed. Do not ever say we got it easy, because it wasn't and it isn't. Two thirds of the active youth fled the country to survive, you label that easy? And now imagine seeing the way the government spends money like if there was no tomorrow... a elected government with less than 10% of the population votes, it's a circus, it's all a huge joke... and we're just waiting to put them all in jail. Now how is the people responsible for that bad management again?
Belgium in that list, you obviously do not know how they were just about to be rescued some years ago when the whole mess was on, Norway has oil so surely it is where it is.
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who do not know how easy they had it./quote]
I don't see that as offensive. I see that as absolutely correct.
Notice that it is past tense, not present tense. He's referring to before the bailouts.
We already talked about this; ie the gray economies where people didn't pay taxes on goods and services, extremely early retirements, etc, etc.
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who do not know how easy they had it.
Notice that it is past tense, not present tense. He's referring to before the bailouts.
We already talked about this; ie the gray economies where people didn't pay taxes on goods and services, extremely early retirements, etc, etc.
That was not the case to all the countries before stated… 62 was extremely early? The average of people started working at 11 to 14 remeber that, we reformed this country after the 70's from almost nothing to average, the finances took hard times surely, but in all other areas it was a huge leap. And I am sorry we had our taxes at least in PT at level of europe with a fraction of your salaries, less than a third and we managed with prices climbing to almost the same... I get that argument for others but for us is a bit off, our current tax is around 23% for most food. (most restoration has trouble handling it)
Imagine doing your life with 525€ month, where most housing goes for 300€ minimum, and you have to pay all the bills taxes and buy food. Granted you can get a double job and with luck get to 1200€ with a partner and all. This was what we dealed with before, now the housing is 500€ the salaries are less and the taxes cut half your pay basically. The people had nothing to do with the grey economics in PT that is all our government spending on "personal"
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If Greece is a democracy, then it is the people's responsibility to elect who they want. When the political don't do what you want, you vote them out. Germans are not voting in Grecian elections; therefore, it is your responsibility for the way things are in your country. Accept your hand in current situation. Either you, as a people allowed it to happen by not participating or you elected corrupt politicians. Every countries has them so stop acting as if you are the only people who have had it rough. Imagine that someone else has been using your social security income that was meant for you. You would be righteously upset. That is exactly what has happened. Taxpayers money has been diverted to other countries who were irresponsible. If these countries want sovereignty, they need to take responsibility for their actions and not blame other countries. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You cannot have sovereignty to make your own decisions, then blame others when it goes awry. A simple fact of the matter is that other countries have been managing for some time now. It is not about natural resources or size. Scandinavia has freezing weather, is too close to Russia for my taste and is quite small, yet they manage. The UK has terrible weather, is the size of the state of Oregon and pays £1.34 per litre of petrol and they are not complaining. I believe you even have to pay a congestion tax CCAP upon gas guzzling vehicle of £10.50/day. Car insurance will run you approximately £5,000/year. They have a value added tax of 20%, which is still belows Sweden's of 25%. The cost of living is much higher there.
https://www.tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/congestion-charge/paying-the-congestion-chargeAnother simple fact is that people don't like paying for other people's messes. 62 years old is earlier than most countries. 23% tax is low for me anyway and I bet for the UK as well.
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You have benefits for those taxes tho, how much do you pay from hospital and medical care again? Buying a car means paying three times it's price, we have the insurance and the normal buying tax and a tax just to put the car on a public road. And our social security income was used to rescue banks so ahem…
Look I do not want to come across as whining... but unless you actually lived in some of those places you do not know where the money went and how enrage the people was at the spending... like the euro 2004 and the tgv idea...
Imagine scandinavian crowned houses spending 10 times what they spend now... sounds hilarious right? Now live with it for a decade or two.
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You have been the only one making personal attacks. I posted general news that is completely true. Germany and "responsible" countries have bailed out "irresponsible" ones. Responsible being the keyword here. Why is it that the UK, Germany, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Belgium and the Netherlands are doing well, while Spain, Greece, Portugal and Cyprus flounder and spend themselves into an apparent oblivion of tax debt set at 170%+ of their GDP. If you think Greece deserves to do this, why don't you pay my tax bill when I abscond with funds. I didn't think so. This shouldn't have to happen. I don't know why you are standing up for the politicians who have apparently robbed you blind. The taxpayers of these responsible countries pay high taxes, have much fewer government funded amenities than Greece and have a higher retirement age to boot. That is what is takes to finance them. They especially do not enjoy having their tax dollars rerouting to foreign countries who do not know how easy they had it.
You were the one who downlooked the efforts of Greece.
And in every thread you have saw a reply of mine you have replied with a sarcastic manner. I simply talked back in the same manner.
So you should reconsider the whole ''personal attack'' thing. -
We need good (emotionless) debates going on here to liven up the forums.
I believe this was not your intention, but this could never be an emotionless debate, you are talking about the lifes of people ruined, entire generations in poverty… they are not numbered statistics that go up or down in a screen.
And the thought those lifes ruin is used to liven up a forum is utterly insulting.
And I believe you did not meant this but be aware of how it could be interpreted.
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NOTE: My comments are based on before the bailouts.
I've seen reference to Greece having some people retire at 53, but the average retirement age of 57. This was at the same time that the UK and Germany rose their retirement ages to 67. There is no way the Greek government could keep this up without fiddling the books.
Then you have the grey economies where most things were bought and sold illegally without paying taxes on them. Sales tax, VAT and other taxes are extremely important to governments. As an example, income tax in the UK only covers the welfare bill and nothing more. So every other source of tax is desperately needed.
Then there's the civil service who get paid as if they work a 15 to 18 month year, plus other outrageous work related benefits. In the UK, a similar thing was happening with the civil service, but the global economic crash helped fix some of that. Civil servants are still making about 17% more than people doing the same job in the private sector. That's down from 38% to 47% more.
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As I said previously, I only really knew about Greece since it was a major news topic here.
23% tax on food is extremely high. In the UK (and the US) most food is tax free or severely reduced taxes. Luxury foods being the obvious exceptions.
Only certain places in the UK, like London have congestion charges. It varies by place, but some places charge everyone except mass transit, taxis and electric cars, while others charge everyone except mass transit. Some places exempt employees of local firms.
Also, car insurance is a weird thing. It can be extremely high depending on where you live, your age and your job.
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They charge 80 SEK per day for a hospital stay plus I think around 2500 SEK for drugs. That low cost is maintained by the tax system. Their VAT is the highest in the world. As for the cars, very few people actually use them on a day to day basis. Their mass transit system is great and about 75% of people who live in Copenhagen walk or ride a bike everywhere. Car insurance is not absolutely necessary. There has not been any sarcastic remarks, only factual statements. You think 62 is high for a retirement, which is interesting. There is no possible way that you are going to convince me that you pay more taxes than either the UK, Sweden, Denmark or Norway. Especially when you have not provided any sources to that effect because none exist. The aforementioned countries in southern Europe have never superpowers nor have they ever been completely solvent. The credit ratings speak to that effect.
I have places in both the U.S. and Sweden. In California, every time I eat at a restaurant, I am charged 8,75% plus a 20% gratuity if you don't want them to spit in your food next time. The tax does differ county to county in California; however, it is mostly the same. Since you do not customarily leave a gratuity in Europe, it is actually cheaper than the U.S. or at least in California. 20% + 8,75% is 1,0875 * 1,2000 = 1,305 or 30,5%. All food items are taxed unless you go to Subway or some items in the supermarket.
Scandinavians seem to be a very contented people. I believe evidence of this can substantiated by their low violent crime.
Murders per 100.000
| Country | Rate | Population |
| Liechtenstein | 0,0 | 36.925 |
| Monaco | 0,0 | 37.831 |
| Iceland | 0,3 | 323.002 |
| Japan | 0,3 | 127.300.000 |
| Sweden | 0,7 | 9.593.000 |
| Denmark | 0,8 | 5.614.000 |
| Germany | 0,8 | 80.620.000 |
| Netherlands | 0,9 | 16.800.000 |
| United Kingdom | 1,0 | 64.100.000 |
| France | 1,0 | 62.814.000 |
| Oman | 1,1 | 3.632.000 |
| Qatar | 1,1 | 2.169.000 |
| Australia | 1,1 | 23.130.000 |
| Portugal | 1,2 | 10.460.000 |
| Bosnia and Herzegovina | 1,3 | 3.829.000 |
| Tajikstan | 1,6 | 8.208.000 |
| Finland | 1,6 | 5.439.000 |
| Libya | 1,7 | 6.202.000 |
| Greece | 1,7 | 11.030.000 | -
I never said 62 was high for retirement, it's just not exceedigly low as you putted it (specially for people that started working at 14 tops)… I do not aim to convince you that our taxes are higher than yours... tho comparatively you have benefits and higher salaries (which is normal), I was pointing that the situation was far from easy as you labeled it. And if you stopped and actually researched you'd know that in some countries you can't drive a car which is not insured, it's illegal.
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And if you stopped and actually researched you'd know that in some countries you can't drive a car which is not insured, it's illegal.
You have misquoted me. Why would you have need of car insurance if you do not drive. I stated that 75% of the people walked or rode a bicycle instead of using a car or they use a form of mass transportation. Although this is not the case everywhere in the country, it is true for major cities there. I am certain insurance is required in all first world countries, that goes without saying. I am also quite certain that the driving laws here are much stringent. Driving with a blood alcohol concentration greater than 0,02% will earn you 6 months imprisonment. In Germany there is absolutely zero tolerance. New drivers will have their license revoked.
U.S.
First - $13,500.00 (£8.880,00) and it remains on your driving record for 10 years
Second - $28,000.00 (18.420,00)
Third - $50,000.00 (£32.890,00) -
I never said 62 was high for retirement, it's just not exceedigly low as you putted it (specially for people that started working at 14 tops)
I started working at 7yo doing a paper route and haven't stopped working since. What age should the government give me my state pension?
Lot's of Americans get jobs while in school, but their retirement age is 5 years later than yours.
I'm 47 now and I'll be retiring at 71.
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The Grey Market in southern Europe, especially Greece, Cyprus and Malta.
http://ec.europa.eu/europe2020/pdf/themes/07_shadow_economy.pdf
I highlighted countries in red where the actual amount is the greatest even though the percentage is not at the top but near the top. Romania, Estonia and Latvia has very small economies, whose gray economies poses little damage.
| Country | Size of shadow economy (% of GDP) | Undeclared work (% of GDP) |
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| Romania | 29.1 | 16-21 |
| Lithuania | 28.5 | 16-18 |
| Estonia | 28.2 | 7-8 |
| Latvia | 26.4 | 18 |
| Cyprus | 25.6 | 4.2 |
| Malta | 25.3 | 25 |
| Poland | 24.4 | 12-15 |
| Greece | 24.0 | 25 |
| Slovenia | 23.6 | 17 |
| Hungary | 22.5 | 15-20 |
| Italy | 21.6 | 12 |
| Portugal | 19.4 | 5 |
| Spain | 19.4 | 12 |
| Belgium | 16.8 | 6-10 |
| Czech Republic | 16.0 | 9-10 |
| Slovakia | 15.5 | 13-15 |
| EA-17 (weighted average) | 15 | 8 |
| Sweden | 14.3 | 5 |
| Denmark | 13.4 | 3 |
| Germany | 13.3 | 7 |
| Finland | 13.3 | 4.2 |
| United Kingdom | 10.1 | 2 | -
Possibly.
But out of respect to my fellow German users, i won't
I refuse to use norticblue's slimy tactics.Since when did listing facts become slimy? Everything I posted was a fact and is a fact corroborated by verifiable sources. Don't blame me for the current situation in the European Union. Euro tumbles even further to below $1.20, to end the day at $1.1963, £0.7817. :afr: :cry2:
Bloomberg - Euro Extends Slide on ECB Outlook
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2015-01-04/euro-extends-slide-as-japan-resumes-n-z-stocks-advance.htmlSorry sir, but you are an economic dunce. The reason for having the S European countries in the Euro is to lower the value of the Euro, making German and other European products more competitive, otherwise a very high Euro would make German industry uncompetitive. This is all about improving German trade. The Euro has done nothing for the long term improvement of the economies of Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece. All 4 are heading towards Latin American style inequality and indeed, mass poverty. This is the legacy of the Eurozone in those countries. True corrupt politicians in those countries collaborated in the devastation of Southern Europe, but so did corrupt banks throwing away vast amounts of money in loans which could never be repaid. Those banks ought to pay some of their obligations. A clue: none of the money given to S Europe is going to the people of N Europe. It is all going to the corrupt banks of N Europe. And the people of S Europe are in a WORSE situation than before the bailouts. Another note to economic illiterates: if your economy is constantly shrinking, then you can never pay back debt. Greece's debt situation is now WORSE than before the bailouts. Despite the massive poverty, health crisis and food shortages. Please read a book or something, economic illiterates, before you stink out this forum with your fatuous ignorance and stupidity.
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There are structural problems in the PIGS countries, no doubt. The tax situation must be improved. The Swiss banks must be accountable and transparent. Global companies must pay their fair share of tax. Its not the fault of the Northern European people that the situation in the south is so dire. However the governments of Germany (in particular) and also the boffins of Brussels are evil. They, for the sake of expediency, have sentenced the people of Greece to a new servitude. Greece should have just defaulted. And they still can. And as far as Germany is concerned, why is it that a nation can invade Europe and then have the power to sentence some of the same countries to penury? Germany has never compensated the nations it invaded. When is Germany going to stop exploiting its neighbours? The whole Eurozone was never in S Europe's interest, only German industry and bankers. 'Bailouts' have done nothing for Greece, only made things worse. Stop throwing good money after bad.
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I never said 62 was high for retirement, it's just not exceedigly low as you putted it (specially for people that started working at 14 tops)
I started working at 7yo doing a paper route and haven't stopped working since. What age should the government give me my state pension?
Lot's of Americans get jobs while in school, but their retirement age is 5 years later than yours.
I'm 47 now and I'll be retiring at 71. 0
Are you really comparing delivering newspapers to working in a factory or doing servants work? That and yes Matie is right the amount of economical idiocy in this posts is astronomical and based on exploitation of debt, and giving statistics that are about the outcomes to paint a bad image of countries argh… well I did not even wanted to look at this thread again but i'll pin point one thing, as bad as he might paint them in terms of murders and so on, those countries had not lunatics going on murdering children as his so civilized countries have. 0 :cry2:
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I am not comparing paper routes to working in factories.
I simply said I started working at 7yo doing a paper route. I didn't even mention my other job of cutting peoples' grass. Yeah, I eventually went on to work in factories and other jobs while in school.
So there is still no justification for the Southern European countries to retire so much earlier than the rest of the west.
Also, who created the debt problems in the SE countries?! YEP, it was the people that participated in and benefitted from the grey economies. If you guys lived realistically and paid your taxes, like the rest of the west, then your countries wouldn't be hurting so much.
Everywhere in the world, corporations are avoiding paying taxes, but only the countries with massive grey economies are failing.
If the people of Greece (and others) paid their taxes and didn't abuse the system, I wouldn't have to pay higher taxes to bail them out. I agree with a previous poster. We should just let all the failing countries go under, since they resent our help anyway.
