New evidence indicates Turin Shroud not a European forgery
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https://catholicherald.co.uk/new-evidence-indicates-turin-shroud-not-a-european-forgery/
Scientific controversy continues to rage.
New scientific tests conducted on the famous Shroud of Turin have revealed that the flax used to make the linen was grown in the Middle East.
...debunking claims it was grown in Europe.
Another area of dispute is the shroud's age: Carbon datings of a "recent" age (like 800 or 1200 years) are claimed to be taken from "repaired" sections of the Shroud - its edges had been damaged in a medieval fire, nuns repaired them - while datings from more "original" areas get eerily close to 2000 years.
You can still dispute what this thing is. Or how it got imprinted, with what / whose face, what state they were in really, etc. Go for it.
But you can't dispute that, whatever it is, it needs further explanation & study. Because $1m prize not yet claimed:
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(If anyone doesn't know)
"The Shroud of Turin or Turin Shroud is a length of linen cloth bearing the image of a man who appears to have suffered physical trauma in a manner consistent with crucifixion. There is no consensus yet on exactly how the image was created."Except that
is understated.-
"consistent with crucifixion" - of Jesus Christ as described in Christian Testament: particular wounds etc.
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image has weird photographic-holographic properties that can hardly be created even today; consistent with a short, massive burst of radiation that somehow dissolves a human body.
Again - feel free to argue what you think it is - if it's a forgery, ok then how?? I've heard people claim it was Space Alien transporter beam.
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Even back then, it was not hard to get fabric like that and people were more educated than we give them credit for. There was a lot of science being done that the church made illegal.
It's obvious that the nails had to go through the wrists and ankles, not the hands and feet. Blood flows down on a person who is upright.
One thing I noticed is the missing leg breaks that the Romans did.
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@raphjd Aren't we talking about medieval times? Dark Ages? Roman times when they thought earth, air, fire & water were chemical elements?
You figure maybe they had beyond-3D imaging technology, that Church suppressed & we today still can't explain?
Again: dispute who it is all you want - but explain how it got there, at some point.
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I wasn't arguing how it was done, but rather just the points I brought up. We tend to believe people back then were too stupid to do things
Also, the shroud was originally written about around 800 AD, then disappeared until around 1400 AD. We have no idea if the original and the later one are the same.
If memory serves me right, there are 37 Jesus' foreskins in various churches. Some nun Saint has at least 12 fingers floating around. Forgeries are known to exist.
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@raphjd Mostly side issues.
The leg break question is interesting - I'm sure it's been accounted for - I'll have to look up how.
Forging (if that's right word) some foreskin or finger, is of course very easy (if that's right word).
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Controversy still goes. New study dates Shroud of Turin to time of Jesus.
https://www.newsweek.com/turin-shroud-study-claims-controversial-cloth-date-time-jesus-1942310
While the latest study does not discuss the question of whether or not the artifact was indeed Jesus' burial shroud, the authors did find that its age is roughly consistent with his time.
The study
...employed a novel method for dating ancient linen threads by inspecting their structural degradations using a technique known as Wide-Angle X-ray Scattering
& matched its state to linens known to be from Siege of Masada ie. that era.
Since the results do not agree with previous radiocarbon dating research, the authors said "a more accurate and systematic X-ray investigation of more samples taken from the Turin Shroud fabric would be mandatory to confirm the conclusions
To say again: Argue who it is, all you want.
But at some point, explain how it was done.
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@blablarg18 said in New evidence indicates Turin Shroud not a European forgery:
The hands and fingers don't look right to me.
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@lololulu19 Many distortions - remember, story is that cloth was wrapped, draped or folded on body.
It's not photography from 3 meters above, as we would understand it.
Doublings or bends in the cloth, could make distortions as weird super-3D negative image got radiated into cloth - somehow.
Another thing they found - other studies:
Blood specks have chemical markers of extreme stress - consistent with torture & crucifixion.
No medieval forger would think, "Oh I'd better use blood from real torture victim because in 21st century, chemistry science might get good enough to know."
Argue who it is - but, if forgery, explain how. Or if real, explain how.
Point is: it's inexplicable.
Even if you say "technology did it" - OK - whose technology? And how would it be around, in first century AD? Aliens? Wanna go there? Really?
Different thing - Pyramids got a possible solution, recently - Big stone blocks were floated up waterways.
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@blablarg18 I think the biggest problem with the shroud is that it has been altered. I think someone modified it to look more realistic, when in fact the opposite effect happened. It looks like someone added some cartoon like fingers, when in fact, no fingers should be visible.
My understanding is that the body of Jesus was put in a tomb, sealed with a giant round rock, and 3 days later the rock was moved, the tomb was open, and the body gone. I guess the shroud was left in the tomb but the body gone?
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@lololulu19 said in New evidence indicates Turin Shroud not a European forgery:
I think someone modified it to look more realistic
Oh no. If that were true, the skeptic-to-hater range of scientists would be ALL. OVER. IT.
For example, if it were painted or printed or treated even a little, by now they'd have found artifacts of brushstroke, ink, chemical etc. But they haven't.
People have tried to discredit it for centuries.
The only modifications were: Edges damaged in fire several hundred years ago, repaired by nuns.
& that causes problems with radiocarbon dating. If you sample from wrong part of shroud ie. edges, you will get date of the nuns' work - Of course.
@lololulu19 said in New evidence indicates Turin Shroud not a European forgery:
the shroud was left in the tomb but the body gone?
That's the story.
But even if it's wrong story ie. someone else's shroud - still, how was shroud's image done?
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Re: 3D image properties.... USA space bureau (NASA) made tool, to analyze images from their probes & land satellites, render them 3-D if possible.
Some smart person ran Shroud images through same tool, and got 3-D face below.
Our everyday photos lack the needed info, come out messy.
How did such info get imprinted on linen? & hundreds of years ago, likely 2000 years?
The point, again, is: It needs explanation. $1M prize money, awaits.
More advanced 3D render, probably by computer:
@raphjd As to leg breaks: Roman crucifixions did not always feature them, and John 19:33 says "they did not break his legs".
Romans only broke legs to hasten death. Victim would sag down, then asphyxiate faster. Romans only did it if victim took too long.
John 19:33 says, Romans who checked on Christ found him "already dead".
To see no leg breaks on Shroud, fits well.
