A worrying trend from the perspective of a clinical psychologist
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Recently i have been counselling a gay client , without divulging any personal information , who has been struggling with severe depression and anxiety due to his feeling that he does not belong in the gay community as he is deemed effeminate , "Im not straight acting " , i really had to step back as it filled me with rage , why should he be straight acting , when did our communities become places filled with such animosity toward those in our own , that differ from us , we have racial prejudice masked as sexual preferences , white privilege gone hay wire and now "sissy" shaming , i saw this article recently but think that this pretty much applies to all Gay communities in first world nations,
quite dismayed on what is happening right now , when i came out at the age of 14 , the gay ( Queer) community was so inclusive , but the time , they are a changin as the song implies.
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It's exactly the same in the straight communities, so why should being gay mean you should like everyone else who is gay? Just because people have something in common doesn't automatically make them likeable or acceptable, blacks don't always like other blacks, whites don't always like other whites, women don't always like other women etc.
I personally don't like effeminate men, being gay doesn't mean you suddenly have to act like those dreadful camp queens from TV shows. that to my mind is one of the biggest reasons straight men hate gays. It all just seems so put on, like some great performance.
I kind of know where your client is coming from as I too have and still do suffer, but because I'm too straight (no act involved) and I found back when I came out the gay community far from welcoming and inclusive unless you were hot, hung,horny and a slut. The average guy still got and still gets overlooked , it's why I and most of my friends stopped going out on the town and basically said fuck you to the gay community. I have a partner of 17 years and a great group of mixed friends, all of who agree the gay community is nothing more than a meat market for your weekend fuck. They don't want to help the "new gay" come out and join the community, they just wanna get into his knickers till he becomes old news and the next fresh meat comes along.
I totally disagree with the racial prejudice masked as sexual preference, there are plenty of mixed relationships and mixed one night stands to prove this to be total bullshit. Sexual preference is sexual preference be they black, white, ginger, cut, uncut, top, bottom, fem, dom, etc we all like what we like and that is the same for gay or straight. So yeh maybe in an ideal world it would be a case of it's a hole so just fuck it, but that's not what humans do we all like different things but that doesn't make us racist or prejudice.
I wish your client all the look in the world, but don't hold out much hope if he thinks the gay community is going to make him happy.
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when people are told this is the ideal or that is the ideal and what you are is inferior to it , then thats a problem
everyone has a right to be safe and feel wellness and be part of a community , you have mentioned MikeChang , that you're in a 17 yr relationship , awesome buddy however that also means that you may not be in that circle anymore ( the one of single life) , you have also mentioned a truth , that the gay community is no longer welcoming of the next generation.
there is a me ,me , me attitude that needs to change within the community , you may not be a part of it , neither am i buddy , i was quite lucky to be fostered and nurtured by the rave community in the early 90's late 80's , i didn't need to feel "included " by the gay community as i didn't share the same belief or tastes. but some people need that feeling of inclusiveness as they have either been rejected by or abused by the straight community,( family friends etc ) i respect your view on sexual preference and maybe i didn't explain what i mean by my argument , what i meant is those that bark out bullshit like no blacks no asians no fatties etc. this lad would has no issues in the looks department ( a cis male and white he has the world at his feet ) , i have suggested that he meet people through avenues other than the mainstream , never the less ,it is sad that my generation ( the 40 yr olds ) don't have a sense of nurture for the younger ones , and if i could, i would be a mentor to him ,but that would cross dr patient lines that im not allowed to break. -
I was recently having a similar discussion with my wife about how cliquish the gay community is. Here in the us the bi's stick to the bi's etc. and yes it is a meat market for the most part, so many of the people I have dealt with have a problem with me having a partner of each sex. It also really feels like being back in High School. We can't force other people to grow up, so what's to do? :spank2:
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I'm really bored of hearing gay men say shit like "I hate camp men like those queers on TV! They don't hae to be like that."
Do they not realise that there does actually exist some men — straight and gay — who are effeminate, and it isn't put on, just like some men are masculine and it isn't put on? Jesus christ…
I wish people would just let others live and be themselves. I'd much rather be friends with someone who is girly or campy by nature than some gymrat bro who does nothing but over-compensate to fit into a straight masculine mould and takes steroids so people will think he's more manly than he really feels.
Just be yourselves!
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I'm a gay man. Certain types of men make my dick get hard. Other types of men don't make my dick hard. That's a reflection of my sexual attractions, and not being attracted to every type of guy is not something I feel the need to apologise about.
When it comes to acceptance of others, it's a different story. I'm happy to accept anyone who behaves reasonably towards me and towards others. What possible reason would I have not to accept someone because of any other characteristic, like whether they were fat, thin, young, old, of a given race or not of a given race, feminine, masculine, wearing leathers or wearing feathers or even wearing leathers and feathers.
I've seen first hand a variety of "you're not the right type" prejudices and in a small way have been subject to one when some friends of mine accused me of "butching it up" so that people would be surprised when I told them I'm gay. I've never had time for that sort of idiocy. How can you honestly expected to be accepted for your differences when you discriminate against others for their differences.
I think much of it it comes down to some people feeling they need to feel better about themselves by feeling superior to others. That's never going to work either in a society or in a community.
I personally don't like effeminate men, being gay doesn't mean you suddenly have to act like those dreadful camp queens from TV shows. that to my mind is one of the biggest reasons straight men hate gays. It all just seems so put on, like some great performance.
@MikeChang Mike, if you've been in a relationship for 17 years, it seems likely that you're old enough to know better than to come out with this rubbish! Some people, not only straight men, hate gays - true. Haters don't have or need a rational reason for their hate, They need no excuses so scapegoating effeminate men or drag queens or any other group is not only unfounded but pointless and damaging.
You should look at our history. Those effeminate men and drag queens have done far more to make progress in equality than masculine guys, perhaps because of the difficulty of ignoring them, but they've put their balls on the line for our community for decades and they deserve our respect!
I recall, over 30 years ago, a group of queer bashers outside a gay club in the dark times of the early 80s, attacking a young, small, in their eyes, easy target; typical bully behaviour I and a couple of other "butch" guys started towards them, but were overtaken by two drag queens who had just left the club. They both stopped about 10m short of the fight, to take off their high heels and then proceeded to use their stilettos as highly effective weapons against the attackers, who literally didn't know what had hit them. They'd fled by the time I got there and all that was left to do was to provide a shoulder for them to steady themselves as they re-shod. That takes the kind of guts that many of "butch" guys didn't show that night.
There are countless examples of those who put on "some great performance", moving our community forward and supporting us. Read the true history of Stonewall - you may be surprised.
Bottom line. If someone is causing no harm - and I challenge anyone to show how someone in drag or who is effeminate, in doing so, causes harm - then why should they not be accepted for who they are. Why is it anybody's business other than theirs if they act in a manner more commonly associated with someone of a different gender? Why is is anyone else's business if they choose to wear a frock? Why is it anyone else's business if they don't fit into the gender binary, or are transexual, or pansexual, or transgender or asexual or intersex or are any combination of the countless variations that people come in?
If you want to fight hate, start with the haters, don't become one.
I'll proudly stand shoulder to shoulder with a bloke in a frock, or a bloke who acts like a girl, or any of the groups I mentioned above, or any of the ones I missed. I consider them to be in my community. I consider someone who discriminates against people based on superficialities, not to be.
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This trend is not new, it has been there ever since there was such a thing as a gay community.
There has always been more than one community and it could be that your patient is looking for acceptance from the brain-dead asshole community. I know some effeminate men who are attracted to clones and most clones are narcissistic bastards who will reject anyone not being like them, so that causes a lot of grief. I think that Quentin Crisp is a good example of someone who suffered from this.
But that's just a small part of the gay community. Unfortunately the most visible one.
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Antstorm,
Given your profession, you may have already read it, but the book "On the Nature of Prejudice" by Gordon Allport is an excellent book that covers the full range of the subject in a very insight full way.
Typically, the more a group is accepted by the larger majority, the more prejudices of its own develop within it.
Within most communities, however, there are often sub-communities one does fit into. This might be a possible choice for your client. Not everyone is accepted by everyone.
There are many things that can lead one to not fitting into a community. Obvious bigotry is one of them, but there are others. I have always felt the outsider because there is much about me that just never really "fits in" with other groups. Even a group which I organized – one grew nationwide -- I found with time I did not fit into.
I found over time I did not fit into the gay male community, because sex-without-strings is boring to me. Literally, I would rather read a book. (I have, more than once.) But that, I found, resulted in my being an outsider in the gay male community.
For some, you are left out, because you do not fit in or you do not follow.
The desire to find others we share commonality with also has the effect of excluding others. Sometimes I think it is better if we find ourselves not a community -- but friends. Again, however, if you are an outsider, that can also be difficult.
I don't have an answer. I don't think there is an answer now. Perhaps as Humanity evolves, our nature as a social animal will also evolves, hopefully in a way that becomes more inclusive.
For now, perhaps the best we can do is be aware there is a problem.
. . .
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I have read it mate and its insightful , I myself don't fit in the gay community either , but i chose not to, my reasons are simply music related .my client has since stepped up to a more appropriate gay counselling service , in high level CBT there is not much in the way of assistance i could provide him , its a very specific structured discipline that really doesn't handle self esteem issues stemming from subcultures or CALD groups
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**While growing up in the redneck area of the woods I am from, the gay community close to my area was very accepting to everyone. I come to much bigger city and the gay community is divided into sub communities such as bear, muscle men, trans, twinks, etc. etc. It really blew my mind how much each community disliked another. Sad thing there are even sub communities with in sub communities.
Everybody is not going to like or even get along with everybody. Sad to say it all like being in high school.
I do my own thing, if you like to come along on the ride, that will be great. I am not asking you to be my friend, just to accept me as I am. Until people get to this stage on life, there will always be people that will play these games.**
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Firstly I never said "HATE", I said I dislike, just as thousands of other gay men dislike, bears, fats, twinks, tattooed, shaved, cut or uncut, women, lesbians, etc, etc, etc. I gave an example to further my dislike to a particular type, (Camp Queens) that being the character played by Anthony Cotton in Queer as Folk UK or Jack from Will & Grace. I'm not saying there aren't people who are naturally like this, but I am saying there are plenty who think this is how they should be and therefore put on the act and make a whole over the top performance of being this way. I fully agree with the comment "Be Yourself" but just as I don't expect everyone to like me for who I am, don't expect everyone to like you for who you are, that is just totally unrealistic. I just don't get turned on sexually by this "type" just as scat, watersports, spit, fisting does nothing for me, socially I have never had many "effeminate" friends, and whilst I wouldn't say I purposely avoid them, I also don't actively seek them.
I'm only one person and the original comment was that this effeminate guy felt he was not belonging in the gay community, something that I guarantee is not affected by me in any way. I was simply saying my feelings to one effeminate type and my experience of that types acceptance among straight men I know or have known.
The comment about this being the biggest reason straight men hate gays DOES in fact come from my experience of many years of being gay and having straight and gay people telling me they (when they find out I'm gay) that they are so glad I'm not like those camp queens that turn their stomachs.
I never mentioned "Drag artists" of any sort, why because one of my best friends is not only gay, but also a Drag Queen, yet out of his frock he probably straighter than me except when in the sheets. I wouldn't want anyone else next to me when it comes to a fight as he can kick the shit out of the biggest thug or hater you could throw at him.
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"No fats, no fems, (no Asians)" - this is the moniker of the modern Grindr user and of many people in the Gay community. We're not talking this not being sexually attractive to people, we're talking about the fact that many groups, fats, fems, etc, are excluded from the larger gay community and are HATED by many in the gay community, and are bullied just the way gays are bullied by homophobes. It's the same with agism in the gay community. I don't think there is any other community I'm familiar with that demonizes aging more than the gay community. Personally, I think it's very sad, and just goes to show that the LGBT community is composed of humans, are requires a lot of work - we've been working so hard on what those OUTSIDE the community think of us, and gaining equal rights, etc etc, that we have to a certain extent ignored the development of civility and acceptance INSIDE our community.
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Firstly I never said "HATE",
Yes, you did use the word 'hate'; it's right there in the part of your post that I originally quoted. Even if you hadn't used the word, are you surprised that when you scapegoat a whole part of the community by saying,
being gay doesn't mean you suddenly have to act like those dreadful camp queens from TV shows. that to my mind is one of the biggest reasons straight men hate gays.
that it's described as hate?
I gave an example to further my dislike to a particular type, (Camp Queens) that being the character played by Anthony Cotton in Queer as Folk UK or Jack from Will & Grace. I'm not saying there aren't people who are naturally like this, but I am saying there are plenty who think this is how they should be and therefore put on the act and make a whole over the top performance of being this way.
Some people choose to modify their behaviour for reasons including fitting in with a group. Assuming they're doing no harm by behaving that way, why is it any of anyone else's business? Where is the list of acceptable manners of behaviour? Who produced this list and what gives them the authority to do so?
Note: In all comments, I'm referring to freedom of behaviour which causes no harm. It would be tedious in the extreme to keep repeating that so I'll take it as understood.
I fully agree with the comment "Be Yourself" but just as I don't expect everyone to like me for who I am, don't expect everyone to like you for who you are, that is just totally unrealistic.
Who said anything about liking everyone? There's a huge difference between liking and accepting someone. No, we can't reasonably expect to be liked by everyone - true for everyone on the planet - but we sure as hell should be working toward acceptance of everyone! I have a very long list of people I don't like, but I accept everybody's right to be the way they are or the way they choose to be. That's not me seeking to be unusually accepting; the fact is that it's none of my damn business how they are!
I'm only one person and the original comment was that this effeminate guy felt he was not belonging in the gay community, something that I guarantee is not affected by me in any way.
This is a total cop-out. While you may not have affected the person who was the subject of the original post - assuming he's not a member of this site and didn't read your post - others who read your comments, who identify with the group you criticised, certainly will have been affected by you. Some, who have a strong sense of self-esteem, will probably have been angered by it, dismissed it or otherwise dealt with it with no harm being done. Some others though who have low self-esteem will have been damaged by it. Their already poor self-esteem will have been further eroded by your comments - that's the way it works!
http://www.thetrevorproject.org/pages/facts-about-suicide
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/25711600/higher-suicide-risk-for-young-gay-and-lesbian-people
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/04/us/04suicide.html?_r=0
https://www.mailman.columbia.edu/public-health-now/news/study-links-social-environment-high-attempted-suicide-rates-among-gay-youthThat first url has an interesting quote
Each episode of LGBT victimization, such as physical or verbal harassment or abuse, increases the likelihood of self-harming behavior by 2.5 times on average.
Source: IMPACT. (2010). Mental health disorders, psychological distress, and suicidality in a diverse sample of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender youths. American Journal of Public Health. 100(12), 2426-32.We have a horribly high level of suicide in our community. That's a headline reality. The less obvious reality is that suicide is the most extreme end of a scale of increased likelihood of life-problems such as self-harming, failing to realise potential, lack of self-confidence and mental health problems. I'm sure the originator of this topic could give far more detail to this than I could ever hope to. Comments such as yours will move some readers towards the bad end of whichever scale they're on. perhaps by an imperceptible amount, perhaps by a lot.
Even if it's by an imperceptible amount, it still matters. If you doubt that, take a look at the applications in the psychology of mental health, of Christopher Zeeman's work.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF02686568
Your comments do not exist in isolation from the rest of the world. What you say and post FUCKING MATTERS!
The comment about this being the biggest reason straight men hate gays DOES in fact come from my experience of many years of being gay and having straight and gay people telling me they (when they find out I'm gay) that they are so glad I'm not like those camp queens that turn their stomachs.
Yes, some people's stomachs are turned by gay people, of every type, manner and description. Some people's stomachs are turned by people of a race other than their own. Some people's stomachs are turned by mixed race marriages. Some people's stomachs are turned by people with disabilities. Some people's stomachs are turned by people of a religion other than their own. In every case, the problem lies with those whose stomach is turned.
The remedy to this gastric discomfort isn't the change in the behaviour of those that distress them; it's that they get rid of their sense of entitlement to decide how other people are allowed to behave!
As for the reason that some straight men hate gays; it's because they're haters. They seek to legitimise their prejudice by claiming their hate is half for only one part of the community, but that doesn't change the fact that they are haters. Refer to my comments above regarding a sense of entitlement. They may seek to make a scapegoat out of a particular sub-group but it boils down to the same thing - they don't get to make the rules on what's acceptable!
Accepting their hate without challenge, serves to add to the problem by, in their eyes, validating the behaviour, and by tacitly reinforcing that message of hate.
I never mentioned "Drag artists" of any sort, why because one of my best friends is not only gay, but also a Drag Queen, yet out of his frock he probably straighter than me except when in the sheets. I wouldn't want anyone else next to me when it comes to a fight as he can kick the shit out of the biggest thug or hater you could throw at him.
You use the term 'straighter'. I'm going to assume from the context that you mean more masculine, not more heterosexual. Heterosexual men don't have the monopoly on behaviour which is traditionally perceived as masculine and the perpetuation of the stereotype that they do, is not only harmful but massively inaccurate.
Did you really mean that first sentence? Had a drag queen not been one of your best friends and/or if he hadn't been 'straighter' than you, you would have included them in or list of those you dislike?
No, you didn't mention drag queens - I did to introduce my anecdote. Interesting that you take issue with my having done so. Why is that?
