'No Fats or Fems'
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Dale Cooper
Since the app Grindr made its debut, I have been troubled by a trend I've noticed. Let me come out and say that I am by no means unfamiliar with Internet-enabled cruising and the kinds of human interaction they bring about. What I have been confronted with, though, on a continual enough basis to make it undeniably some sort of social phenomenon, is the (at times) overwhelming presence of douchebaggery on the app. There's a veritable epidemic of it.
I am not the only person to think this is the case. The link is instructive in explaining exactly what makes one a douche, at least in my opinion and that of the site's readership. It takes the form of asking, in the profile that is broadcast, that certain types of people should not contact the profile owner if they are:
Too short, or too tall ("over 5'7" and under 6'1"), Asian ("not into rice," "gook free zone"), fat ("175lbs or less"), fem ("no broken wrists," "masculinity is not subjective"), black ("no chocolate," "All blacks, keep moving cuz I ain't interested unless u can prove not all blacks are the exact same mkay?"), not as hot as the profile owner, Latino, ugly, hairy, old ("no older than 30"), closeted, uncloseted, bisexual, not bisexual, not a college guy, not a jock, a fag, into the scene, a ginger, Catholic, Republican, not "musc," not "prof," not "VGL."
The takeaway from these attempts at filtering contact for me is the incredible degree of specificity that some Grindr users want in the types of other human beings saying "sup" to them. There is also the suggestion that the speech act itself could be some form of violation. Of particular note is the phrase "not into," taken to mean not sexually interested in.
It is not the fact that some people are "not into" certain types of other people that perplexes me. It is instead the incredible brazenness with which people will associate pejorative views of others with their publicly visible identity. Most troubling is the ease with which some profiles will confess extreme prejudice or use racist epithets, somehow made allowable as a language of sexual attraction or personal preference.
The larger question is whether this phenomenon is specific to the app, or if it just finds its most easily seen form in Grindr. Unfortunately and of course it is the latter. There is something about the blend of social-media publicity and a paradoxical pretension to anonymity fostered by the Internet that is enabling of things like trolling.
Yet the things placed on these profiles would not be readily said at the outset of conversation or, arguably, read of a person. One possible explanation may be that, before lines of code and satellites enabled it, these interactions had to take place where physical gay bodies gathered. Grindr delivers heads and torsos in the space of a smartphone screen. In an interesting twist, Grindr is still grounded in physical location, since it takes advantage of GPS. It allows bodies of all types to congregate without the usual geographic and social barriers, the placement and accessibility of gay spaces being governed by the usual suspects of history, race and class just like everything else.
Those barriers to access have been altered by technology. That these activities have become dependent on smartphones underlines a new-ish emphasis on the class difference – smartphones and data plans do not come cheap. Ostensibly, though, any body is capable of getting a smart phone and getting on the app, given the right amount of capital. Grindr, for better or worse, is now the type of site where gay identification can take place, allowing different generations, classes, races, and orientations to project their bodies onto the Grindr grid and have a look.
It relieves users of most of the affective labor of cruising, that is, bodies coming into physical proximity. However, it does bring all types of people's bodies together, boxed off with the thinnest margin of black pixels to separate one from the other. I believe that this is the fundamental source from which douchebaggery springs. Grindr radically reorients queer bodies and social mores by having a low threshold for access, the relative protection of semi-private usage, and an organization based on proximity. There is the potential for a lot of very different-looking bodies "touching." Differences that one are not used to interacting with could be right next door.
The class basis of Grindr will begin to erode when the relative novelty of current smart phone technology thins and they become more affordable. As access increases, more and more different-looking people will be readily visible on Grindr, but the customs and suppressions determing which bodies congregate in which spaces that we're accustomed to is not performed. Some users feel the need to perform this policing themselves.
Some of the things people are "into" on Grindr are crude, demeaning, or ignorant. As the Internet continues to democratize, more and more types of bodies will have access. We have already seen the beginning splinters of market products for GPS-enabled cruising: Scruff is an alternative gathering space for those who find Grindr offputting. While I understand the potential desirability of these services (and think Grindr could use some serious competition), I worry that it just mimicks the same damaging social structures of "real life" interaction, and that we are losing queerness as a unifying identity across difference.
The user agreement for Grindr stipulates that no "offensive" materials be included in a profile; violation is supposed to lead to profiles being disabled. Far more often "offensive" is taken to mean pornographic, rather than what I would consider the far more toxic blatant racism. So I wonder if people are thinking about how we are interacting with one another on Grindr. The "block" button is is great but seductive: it lets users kick others out of their own personal Grindr neighborhoods. It does nothing to add to a broader discussion about what the "Grindr community" (as the company that runs the program calls it) could find offensive, should find offensive, or should stop.
The novelty of Grindr's meeting space allows for a community-developed praxis. What speech is allowable as expression of sexual preference in this new queer space? Use that question as a conversation starter if you're out of torso compliments. Douchebaggery, on the other hand, does advertise quite handily which users I myself would be wasting time saying "sup" to.
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This is GrindR, not an English tea party.
There are a lot of dicks and asses on GrindR. I have no problems with those expressing clearly what they want when looking for hookups. It is much better to be in out in the light so others can decide for themselves whether they are a match or to avoid such douche bags. :crazy2: -
I find it's easier, more polite, and ultimately more effective to just use positive language.
No fat or fems = Preference given to fit, healthy, and manly.
I personally avoid the people who use excessive negative exclusionary language.
But hey, I'm single. What do I know about meeting nice guys…
![😕](https://community.gaytorrent.ru/assets/plugins/nodebb-plugin-emoji/emoji/apple/1f615.png?v=hvqg2qn0nb4 ":-\")
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'No Asian. No Indian': Picky dater or racist dater?
ZOSIA BIELSKI
THE GLOBE AND MAIL
Last updated Thursday, Sep. 06 2012, 11:48 AM EDTA burly white man named Jim describes himself as, “Just a normal guy … Not into Asians.”
A Dolph Lundgren-lookalike named Danny is more equal-opportunist in his bias: “No Asian, No Indian, No Latino, No Black, No Fat, under 30 years old.”
And it goes downhill from there: “NO CHOCOLATE/RICE,” writes a guy named Dev. Another uses emoticons to send the message: two men, one in a turban and another in a Mandarin hat, followed by a red, negating X.
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Racist – or just American?
Teens' racist video rants ignite outrage and shock
The comments bubbled up recently from the harsh world of Grindr, a location-based app that lets gay men hook up through GPS pinpointing. In an endless parade of shirtless beefcakes, many state racial biases as openly as other turnoffs, like flab.“The culture of sexual liberation has been replaced by sexual segregation,” wrote Alex Rowlson last fall in Fab magazine, lambasting the widespread racism on gay hookup sites.
Explicit prejudice is not exclusive to Grindr – racial filtering is alive and well on mainstream dating and hookup websites, which give users the option of checking ethnic preferences alongside ideal body types and social habits like smoking and drinking.
As Canadian and American census numbers consistently show that interracial unions are on the rise, online dating is now the second most popular form of matchmaking, behind meeting through friends. Here, race remains murky territory.
While most critics agree that the ethnicity checkbox is vastly preferable to specifying ‘No Asians,’ they disagree about whether the option is a step backward. Is it any different than hunting through niche sites like Shaadi, an Indian matrimonial website, or JDate, an online matchmaking service for Jews?
More crucially, can our sexual preferences be deemed racist, or is attraction a matter of personal taste? Do we need to “prefer” everybody?
In Out Magazine last month, Alexander Chee documented the anti-Asian sentiments prevalent on Grindr: “Men who put NO ASIANS on their profile are not stating a preference,” Mr. Chee wrote. “You’re using the disguise of a semi-socially acceptable way to say you’re a racist and looking to hook up with other racists.”
A statement e-mailed from Grindr acknowledged that users can list race in their preferences, but can be banned for posting material “perceived to incite racism, bigotry, hatred or physical harm of any kind.”
“We also encourage our users to state what they are looking for as opposed to what they are not looking for,” the e-mail read.
On generalist dating sites, users are discouraged from narrowing criteria, even though the option is built right into the services.
“Jerks come in all races and good people come in all races. If you stick within one ethnicity, it does seem like you’re potentially cutting yourself off from meeting someone who could be amazing,” said Kim Hughes, a dating and relationships expert with Toronto-based Lavalife.
The website lets people sort by ethnicity using an advanced search that also lets them parse body type (“queen or king-sized” anyone?) and religion, from Lutheran to new age. Ms. Hughes’s advice is to nail down the deal breakers – desire to have children, for example – and be open otherwise.
“The vagaries of the human heart is what it comes down to,” Ms. Hughes acknowledges. “It’s really not for me as an individual or as a representative of a corporation to judge what’s going to turn somebody’s crank.”
A poll of nearly 2,000 Lavalife users conducted last summer found that 74 per cent of women surveyed said ethnicity affected their dating decisions, compared with 49 per cent of men.
“Women may be pickier in general,” Ms. Hughes offered.
“Men are more open to meeting people from different communities. They tend to concentrate on physical aspects whereas women are much more interested in lifestyle and background,” said Justin Parfitt, chief executive of speed-dating company FastLife International.
That gender divide may help explain why most of FastLife’s race-based events have flopped, including Caucasian speed dating: “I suspect many people would assume that others would think them racist for attending,” Mr. Parfitt said.
After organizing some interracial events, he was discomforted by client response, particularly when he learned that many men were categorically overlooking black women: “Of all the groups, black women have the worst luck. It’s really quite gut-wrenchingly sad, some of the feedback.”
Only the Chinese events have steadily attracted clients, but even these have their own caveats: Canadian-born Chinese, Mr. Parfitt has found, often aren’t into first-generation Chinese “who may be too much like their parents or not progressive.”
Even as he urges clients to focus on shared interests such as wine and fitness, Mr. Parfitt shies away from criticizing ethnic inclinations: “It’s very difficult to point the finger and say that what they’re doing is wrong or racist, but it’s uncomfortable. It’s a grey area.”
Some critics argue that racial filters actually help keep people from getting hurt in person.
“I’m not sure that an online-dating scenario is the best place for people to expand their cultural horizons if they are already predisposed to judge,” said Diane Farr, author of the memoir Kissing Outside the Lines, which chronicles her interracial relationship with a Korean man.
“Online dating is a manufactured attraction,” said Ms. Farr. “You’re looking at people’s stats as opposed to their humanity, and then you’re hoping that you’ll see a burst of humanity when you see them for 10 minutes over coffee.”
Much depends on motive, said Faizal Sahukhan, a sex therapist who counsels couples in cross-cultural relationships in Vancouver.
If someone has specified race but “is looking for a short-term or a sexual partner, then this could be a fetish. Fetishes tend to be fantasies,” said Dr. Sahukhan.
He distinguishes this type of search from people in it for the long haul, looking for an ethnic type based on their “personal, positive experience.” Nonetheless, Dr. Sahukhan suggested daters “ask themselves why they would prefer one race over the other.”
In light of the rise of interracial marriages, it appears “online dating is taking a step in the opposite direction,” argued Harry Reis, a psychology professor at the University of Rochester who co-authored a review of 400 studies on online dating, published this month in the journal Psychological Science in the Public Interest.
“People should be free to have sex or not have sex with anyone they want. But if you categorically rule out an ethnic group, it is by definition racist. One may not be racist in other ways but when it comes to sexual preferences, the person is. And in my estimation, it is fine (although self-limiting) to be racist with regard to sexual preferences.”
The review suggests that online dating reduces “three-dimensional people to two-dimensional displays of information,” fostering a shopping mentality among users who becoming exceedingly picky and judgmental.
“When you exclude people just because you think you don’t like a this or a that, you’re excluding the possibility of finding out that your stereotype is wrong,” Prof. Reis said.
“Throw out the checklist,” Mr. Parfitt advises. “What you think you want and where you end up finding chemistry are often two very different things.”
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I say that im not interested in decapitated people or those that can't hold a conversation … is that shallow? but at the end of the day if someone doesn't find particular people attractive such as blondes or short people or whatever and they are using grindr they are looking for physical attraction those kinds of people would be fine as friends but not for sex, is the way i see it.
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I always find ironic how the community stigmatizes itself, straight looking gay men became a fad here too, and well I always laugh when they call fems as if they were inferior, because from where I am standing; first a hetero will always find those same straight looking gays effeminated because yes some try to hide their flamboyance and well it keeps coming out ahaha, and second there is the stereotype, second it takes much more balls to be a fem gay man than a macho one… and well we have the age gap issue too, and let's be real noone is as cruel to a gay has another gay, looks for most are all that matter and then they wonder why their relations last 3 months if that.
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:true: and well said myrea :hapgay:
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I find it's easier, more polite, and ultimately more effective to just use positive language.
No fat or fems = Preference given to fit, healthy, and manly.
I personally avoid the people who use excessive negative exclusionary language.
But hey, I'm single. What do I know about meeting nice guys…
That's what's thinking and gonna post.
Why don't people just list their preferences? It's a big enough hint that way as well…I always find ironic how the community stigmatizes itself, straight looking gay men became a fad here too, and well I always laugh when they call fems as if they were inferior, because from where I am standing; first a hetero will always find those same straight looking gays effeminated because yes some try to hide their flamboyance and well it keeps coming out ahaha, and second there is the stereotype, second it takes much more balls to be a fem gay man than a macho one… and well we have the age gap issue too, and let's be real noone is as cruel to a gay has another gay, looks for most are all that matter and then they wonder why their relations last 3 months if that.
I agree, especially with the part about it taking more balls to be fem. People don't realize just how hard life can be for fem guys, and also that they're just being who they are naturally. My BF has a friend he has known since childhood who is straight but acts a bit fem and has fem mannerisms, it's just who he is. Someone at work tried to out me by starting a rumor. It must have been a good one and believable because I had to fend off some 50+ guys. The times I stuck up for myself in an aggressive way, the other person backed down. There was jaw dropping and stuttering and no more problems from them.
Not the place to be out sadly. My co-workers tried to intimidate, threaten, and harass me so I'd leave. I'm still working there and they can all shove it up their butts! Prior to that, and still outside of work, people assume I'm straight so I get to hear all the "hidden" bigotry and it's so annoying. That experience was the worst, but I'm glad it happened to me even though it's a big source of stress in my life. I've learned so much from it. Too many straight acting/macho gays are clueless. If they ever thought about what it would be like to have slurs shouted at them, or possibly be assaulted, for simply being themselves, maybe they'd have more compassion and be kinder to fem guys. They probably never think about, or know, how many times a day/week a fem guy might get hated on. Yep, life sure is easy when you can blend in go about your everyday life without dealing with bullshit from homophobes and bigots while hiding behind the veil of faux heterosexuality. Nothing "macho" about that. Non-white LGBT people have a special place in my heart too. Racism still exists, and being gay can be tough enough as is. It's the fems, trans-people, and drag queens that fought, and still fight, hardest for our rights. They deserve respect! I love ALL of my LGBT people! :love: -
Non-white LGBT people have a special place in my heart too. Racism still exists, and being gay can be tough enough as is. It's the fems, trans-people, and drag queens that fought, and still fight, hardest for our rights. They deserve respect! I love ALL of my LGBT people! :love:
:true: Just focus on loving instead of hating
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It's funny how I often hear people complain about others that say "not fats or fems" but when you ask them how they feel about older guys they have no issue saying they aren't the least bit interested. It's a double standard and basically saying "I should be accepted but only by those who I am willing to accept".
Same goes if someone says they like only Hung men, someone will quickly say "Size Queen", but nobody will criticize you if you say you only like round butts.
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Everyone has their "type" and there is nothing wrong with it.
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If everyone is allowed to have their preferences, then there is nothing wrong with saying "no fats or fems".
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Everyone has their "type" and there is nothing wrong with it.
I totally agree with you on that!! If you don't fit into a persons type, then move around and find someone else. There is far too many gay men out there to get upset about a persons preference. I do however feel that people should be more open to try new things. But I can't be upset if someone isn't attracted to me. If you say no blacks, then you just miss out on all this chocolate goodness. LBVS!!
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It's funny how I often hear people complain about others that say "not fats or fems" but when you ask them how they feel about older guys they have no issue saying they aren't the least bit interested. It's a double standard and basically saying "I should be accepted but only by those who I am willing to accept".
Same goes if someone says they like only Hung men, someone will quickly say "Size Queen", but nobody will criticize you if you say you only like round butts.
Couldn't have said it better. Honestly, i've always been straight (am kinda Bi now
haha) and I prefer women still - but it's true that people are blinded by their own opinions so much that they can't understand the irony of what they've said. It's a little ridiculous. Everyone is entitled to their own preferences but saying (no femmes etc) and still believing your opinion of (i like hung men only) isn't a double standard - is beyond absurd. -
HMM, I got negative rep for my previous comment.
To the people that gave me negative rep, do you download every video here or do you choose which ones you want? Answer carefully.
I'm sorry, but I would commit suicide if I had to live with Nathan Lane's character in The Birdcage.
Also, why should I be forced to commit myself to someone I don't find attractive? Or I find their morals disgusting? Or whatever?
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It is on any site that men use. The guys are just trying to say what are their interests and likes and what turns them off. One day people might grow up and accept others for who they are and not what they look like.
Have a friend on A4A that contacted someone and just said that he enjoyed the others profile. The guy responded back that that he should not have contacted him because my friend is black and the guy was white. That kind of attitude has no place in the world
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Everyone has their "type" and there is nothing wrong with it.
Nothing wrong with it at all. It just depends on how a person goes about defining what he likes or doesn't like that is wrong. Just like the guys that only go off the photos and don't read the profile
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If you are not attracted to another race, that does not make you racist. In fact the amount of interracial marriages is extremely according to the U.S. Census Bureau.
According to this table no one really likes marrying outside of their race that much.| | White Wife | Black Wife | Asian Wife | Other Wife |
| White Husband | 50,410,000 | 168,000 | 529,000 | 487,000 |
| Black Husband | 390,000 | 4,072,000 | 39,000 | 66,000 |
| Asian Husband | 219,000 | 9,000 | 2,855,000 | 28,000 |
| Other Husband | 488,000 | 18,000 | 37,000 | 268,000 | -
Oh there's definitely a dismissive, hateful undertone to the wording of many profiles I read. I tend to be into guys 25-45 and my various profiles state that and I don't need to put "ABSOLUTELY NOT INTO GUYS OVER 50" though I get messages from older men a lot. I'm wondering if the nastiness of certain profiles reflects a more widespread degradation in our basic cultural civility? Are the people who put "no fats/no fems" in their profile the same people who will cut you off in traffic, talk on a cell phone while at a register and fail to hold open a door?
