@raphjd:

I didn't I hate YOU specifically, I said I hate liberals in general.

I'm a liberal. If liberals are why you hate liberals, stands to reason…

I don't understand it to be honest. I'm cute as a fucking button

@raphjd:

Liberals told me that I had to worship Bill Clinton when he signed into law the 3 most homophobic laws the US ever had.

Liberals used to be against illegal immigration.  Every presidential 4 year term since/including Carter, they voted to end illegal immigration.  Suddenly, in 2015, they flipped to loving illegals to the point they now want open borders and welfare for anyone in the US.

This crap over the last 4 years just adds to the laundry list of why I can''t stand liberals.

Liberals told you nothing. Liberals attempted to convince you. There's a massive world of difference.

As for immigration, the situation and society is fluid in their views on the matter. I can't speak for the Clinton years - I was but a wee bairn. Well late teens with no interest in anything but what was in my pants - but if there's been a pro-immigration shift since then, maybe you should examine why that is. As far as i can see, the liberal shift towards immigration has been about specific controls of the border and a humanitarian approach to those seeking a better life in the US. You say potato.

+++++

@raphjd:

BTW, I have absolute proof Shift Schiff loves to suck baby dick, but I won't show it until the right time.   :blink: :cool2: :crazy2:

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ohhhkay
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@raphjd:

Great legal minds disagree.

exactly - on both sides. You have 2 opposing views on a very complex matter. Whoever wins, it must be bias and not the legal interpretation from several experts on the specific merits of the case. It was a unanimous decision.

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@raphjd:

NO EU Army, aka "its a dangerous fantasy" according to Nick Clegg when he debated Farage.

Osbourne's punishment budget if we voted to leave.

Reform from within, despite the EU learning nothing from several votes in recent years against them.

The one thing you keep forgetting is that the EU are being bastards to discourage others from leaving.

Yes, those things were lied about or misrepresented too. Which proves the point that the brexit we were voting for (or against) in 2016 is vastly different than what were getting now. The issue isn't that brexiteers didn't know what they were voting for. The issue is the Brexit being voted for was a lie.

@in2unow123:

Hopefully one of you is a top, the other a bottom (or at least versatile) and you can pound it out that way.

I've had some questionable guys before now but I'm not sure the few standards i do have will stretch this far. Sorry raphjd buddy, seems our budding romance is a non-starter

@in2unow123:

I'm scratching my head at this, though I'm not from the UK (American here), I can't help but wonder why the site's #1 Forum Policeman (and a good one at that) decides to launch a volley of wild political firestorm into the forums (gay forums at that)? I would imagine it is worse than the equivalent of liberals vs conservatives in the United States; those who love everything Donald Trump does and stands for vs. those of us who think he is someone's puppet and the worse thing that has ever been voted president by the electorate of our country.

Nationalism has no place in the global community any longer. My country is not better than yours - and your country is not better than mine. Unless your country is of those who stone and kill gay people - then your country is a pathetic piece of shit.

If these were my forums, I would have politics formally removed and banned. But apparently, the founders wanted GayTorrent to be an all-inclusive community of everything that is gay - including UK's politics.

Politics is as much a talking point as, let's say, personal grooming. I can see no reason why not - we're all being civil here right?

Raphjd and I have obviously differing viewpoints, but we're ticking along, making our case like two good upstanding british gentlmen. Well, we're making our case at any rate! It's a good thing to discuss them, share your views and thoughts on some quite important things. Had he made any convincing points, i might even have changed my mind.

@raphjd:

Ok, so she resigned why?

Because the tweet gained a lot of attention, many inferred it was a critique of the working class, the negative press was severely damaging for the party.

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@raphjd:

How many St Georges crosses are flying in the UK on government buildings, compared to the other "national" flags.

So we've switched from football to government buildings? Rather than change the subject, why does football get a pass?

As for flags, honestly i have no idea. I only know the likes of westminster and the palace - both the union jack.

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@raphjd:

Ok, so please name the Scottish ambassador to the UN or the US.

OK i'll rephrase - I didn't know you had to have a passport, UN or US ambassador to be considered a nation

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@raphjd:

Why are liberals always so lazy?   You guys never back up your claims, but demand that we do it.

Nothing to do with either liberals or laziness. Burden of proof?

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@raphjd:

Ah, nice of you to dictate which liberals we can talk about.

Dianne Abbot is the UK''s Shadow Home Sec.

Its not hard to find it.

Again, Burden of proof.

Post title - UK liberals. You determined who we are supposed to be talking about.

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@raphjd:

So, you know it's happening, but are trying to justify it.

Justify? no. explain why it might seem that way. Yes.

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@raphjd:

AH, the "you make a good point but you're too stupid to understand why is it''s a good thing".   Liberals always seem to find a way to "justify" whatever the EU does.

And you seem to find a way to validate your belief in the evil of the EU. You're backing up your view, im backing up mine. This is what debate is. I didn't say you were stupid. It suits your argument though to make it appear like im attacking you. Rather than address the point, you make it personal. I'm not attacking you, I'm arguing the flaws in your argument.

@raphjd:

Umm, the EU is extremely undemocratic.  Even if we exclude the other parts of the EU, the Parliament election system gives my vote far less sway than some twat in Malta, for example.  Each new EU Parliament, if we were to stay, would get worse for US, but better for them.

Again i say consider the alternative. I made this point earlier, read up if you'd like.

@raphjd:

Let's look at the Brexit vote.  One side won, but Parliament is desperate to shit on democracy.  86% of current MP ran on a manifesto to deliver Brexit and here we still are.

Since then, polls now show that the majority are now in favour of remain. Are we bound to democracy only once? You vote for an MP to represent your constituency in parliament. Thats what these guys are doing.

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@raphjd:

"He screwed us" because he allowed us to have a vote on the matter.

You sound like a typical remainer.

"he screwed us" because he failed to campaign properly on the benefits of remain.

Typical remainer? Is that supposed to wound? You sound like a typical brexit voter. Hence the difference of opinion.

@raphjd:

It is an abusive relationship.

No, it isn't.

@raphjd:

Merkel threw open the borders of Europe to the entire 3rd world.  We had no say in the matter.  The EU is now hounding countries that reject all these people flocking here for a welfare check.

Not a sign of an abusive relationship.

@raphjd:

Of course, liberals scream "racist" at anyone who is against allowing all these welfare migrants to come here for a "refugee salary" as one guy called it, explaining why he was going to Sweden, because they have a better welfare check than Denmark.

Have i, a liberal, at any stage called you or any brexit voter a racist? There are some that do, just as there are brexit voters that call me traitor. Passions are high.

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@raphjd:

Things have gotten worse over the 45 years.

In your opinion. My life is good.

@raphjd:

The original vote was solely for an economic union, not a political one.  It was a lie from the very start and it kept going.

WE have been involved in those changes.

@raphjd:

You need to revisit who is calling for an EU Empire.  I'll give you a hint, Verhofstadt is a great place to start.

We could change this, if we were involved. The word empire does indeed have many negative connotations. He was making the point that many empires have been more outward looking and progressive than single nation states. But again, it suits your viewpoint to think of an army marching on smaller nations.

@raphjd:

I have no say in Juncker having a top job in the EU.   I have somewhat of a say in Boris being PM.

Correction - you have very little direct say in Junker having the top job, but you do have a say. I had NO say in Boris becoming PM. None. At all. There is no perfect system. But the EU undemocratic? not so. For example, Boris, could determine the nexat Sassoli. This would be democratic, as i had a say in choosing Boris. Except i didn't.

@raphjd:

US and UK (as well as the rest of the west) liberals are very much the same.   They are anti-semites how love terrorists, above their own people.

Liberals are liberals are liberals.   US Democrats are the same as UK Labour, UK LibDem and UK Greens.

I'm a liberal. I'm not an anti-semite. I abhor terrorism.

Liberals share some commonalities. Liberalism would be the main one. That aside there are many differences. It depends on how you define liberalism. For many in the US, liberalism = democrat. Thats a very broad range of views right there.

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@raphjd:

UMM, it was the SNP (you know Scottish Nationalist Party) couldn't get Syrian refugees into Scotland fast enough, even as you admitted.    2,000 homes suddenly come into existence, that didn't exist 2 minutes before for the homeless already here.

I've already disputed this. Read up.

@raphjd:

Don't just blame the Tories.  I don't know how old you are, but Tony Blair promised to halve the number of kids in poverty.  He did it by redefining what poverty means in the UK.    Gordon Brown, as Chancellor, moved VAT to the end of the queue, so we paid VAT on everything, including charges, fees, surcharges and other taxes.  VAT was raised under Labour.

The so called "bedroom tax" was created by good ol' Gordo.  It hit those in private rentals in 2007 and was supposed to hit those in council housing in 2010, but the coalition government gave an extension to 2013.

Councils (regardless of party in charge) refused to get ready for the changes, which is why there were so many problems.

When England and Wales got rid of "council house for life and beyond" in 2015 (??), Scotland, namely the SNP, refused to also get rid of it because its a massive vote getter.

I didn't blame the conservatives. Just pointing out these are complex issues that neither liberals, nationalists, unionists, conservatives etc have been unable to solve. These are specific societal issues, not liberal ones.

@raphjd:

So yeah, its all Boris' fault.

I didn't say that. He's a very small cog in a much larger machine. The machine is neither run by, constructed by or consist of purely liberals. Fault for the specific issues plaguing our country are often not so easily pinned down. No matter how often and how hard you try to phrase it to represent your specific viewpoint.

@raphjd:

I used to be a liberal.  Liberals are why I hate liberals.

I've just posted something pretty reasonable that we both agree on. Your response is 'I hate you'

You don't hate liberals. You enjoy arguing with them.

@raphjd:

Clearly, I'm not the only one to view it that way.

Clearly, because it conveniently suits the assertion that the supreme court was wrong, Boris was right. Despite the best legal minds determining he acted unlawfully. It must be a remain plot! It cant be Boris' fault!

@raphjd:

It's the remain side that claims, without an ounce of evidence, that we did not vote for no deal and that we were too stupid to know what we were voting for.

Those who say you're too stupid are themselves morons. I've argued this point several times in twitter posts and the like. Many voted Brexit for legitimate reasons with valid concerns. Claiming they're stupid does nothing to further the discussion.

As for evidence, The campaign provides enough.

'A free-trade deal with the EU will be 'the easiest thing in human history'
'The money saved from leaving the EU will result in the NHS getting £350m a week'
'Turkey is going to join the EU and millions of people will flock to the UK'
'Brexit does not mean the UK will leave the single market'

These are lies told on the campaign - the promises made to the people about what Brexit would involve/mean. These are things people voted for. They were lied to.

@raphjd:

Working Class and white trash are the same thing to the liberal elite.

Even if that were true (it isn't), she didn't reference either working class OR white trash. So what you've said is at best, a gross misrepresentation. At worst, a blatant lie.

@raphjd:

Football getting a pass has nothing to do with the topic in general.

It's a massive example of English nationalism. It gets a pass because it's a direct counter to your argument and you didn't like it.

@raphjd:

I would love to see the Scottish passport.   Until then, the UK is only "nation" here.

I didn't realise you had to have a national passport to be considered a 'nation'.

@raphjd:

There's plenty of videos on YouTube, which is where I saw the Ch4 interview, with nationalists of all stripe wanting independence from the UK while insisting rUK remain in the EU to make it better for their independent country.

Care to share?

@raphjd:

Maybe you should listen to people like Dianne Abbot when she says if she becomes the Home Sec, she'll remove all border controls and checks on people getting welfare.

Just because their plans are idiotic, like AOC and the Squad in the US, doesn't mean that's not what they say they want.

Care to share? Again, We arent discussing the US.

@raphjd:

ALL QTs are weighted in favour of remain.  It has been a long criticism of the program.  You can do a simple google search on BBC Brexit Bias, Question Time Brexit Bias.

I didn't dispute that the issue had come up. I've read some of the reports. I made a point about why it might seem to happen that way.

@raphjd:

Votes within the EU don't all count equally.   Smaller countries have higher representation per capita than larger countries.   The UK and Germany have lost representation while smaller countries have gained it.  This will continue with each new EU session.

As such, my vote means very little in the EU, so why should I want to stay in and fund disgusting shit like animal blood "sports".

Consider the alternative, where smaller countries would have absolutely NO say at all in the EU parliament whilst those particularly fertile countries would dominate. You make a fair point but, as ever, the issue is more complicated than that.

Your argument about your vote having little impact, so why bother? EVERY vote matters. Look at how close the Brexit vote itself was. Not to mention that your vote led to the Brexit party becoming the largest single party in the EU parliament. Just because sometimes you aren't in the majority is no reason to lose faith in the system. The conservative government is currently in power - do i throw my hands in the air and declare the system flawed or that my vote counts for nothing? No, i keep voting. Change will come.

@raphjd:

Also, we are leaving because the EU gave Cameron nothing to bring back to the people because they thought we'd never vote to leave.

This isn't unique to the EU. Many in the UK thought we were never going to leave either. Cameron neither pushed for reform, nor campaigned on the idea that they would push for it. Hence the result. I liked the dude as a decent public speaker with some genuinely beneficial policies, but he no doubt absolutely screwed us

@raphjd:

Like it or not, the abusive relationship analogy is a perfect fit

Except it isn't is it? Else you'd be describing how like i'd asked. Do we fear physical harm? Are we being abused emotionally? Do we fear to leave because of the emotional or physical impact of what would happen? Are we feeling helpless, desperate? I say again, shame on you.

@raphjd:

"Remain and Reform" what a frickin joke.   45 years and things have only gotten worse.

WE never pushed for reform. We should have done more. As for getting worse, i disagree.

@raphjd:

The original vote was for an economic community, now they are shouting about an empire.

The EU as it currently stands is a result of changes made by the EU - we bear some of that responsibility. The only shouting about an empire comes from your side.

@raphjd:

Juncker is a massive drunkard and was forced out in disgrace as PM, but he's good enough to lead the EU.

Backroom horse trading for the top job

Boris is a proven liar and adulterer, forced out of his job at the Times in embarrassment. Promises of cushy cabinet positions in order to get the top job. Do i despair over our political system? Have i left the country? No, i vote.

@raphjd:

AOC's original plan, before the New Green Deal, would have cost an extra $48 trillion per decade, not counting population growth or inflation.

Her Green New Deal, which included income for those that refused to work, would cost and extra $100+ trillion.   That doesn't include her latest demand of open borders and handing out welfare like candy.

Every man, woman and child would be required to pay an extra $65,000 a year for the NGD, on top of the normal taxes being paid.

Now adjust those figures for the free stuff people want in the UK.

Again with the US - you keep mentioning how you hate UK liberals and nationalists, but drag the US into the argument to prove your point. Irrelevant.

@raphjd:

We could find houses for Syrians, but not for those already homeless in Scotland.

Only a liberal wouldn't be able to understand the problem there.

Again you simplify and misrepresent the issue massively. The Syrian refugee crisis and homelessness across the country are indeed massive problems and should both be tackled. But you argue the point as a flaw of scottish nationalism. They're doing what they've been told to do by Westminster. It has nothing to do with the Scottish at all, bar location. More should be done to tackle homelessness globally. We currently have a conservative government. These are failings, but not of nationalism or liberalism.

@raphjd:

Maybe you should contact Dianne Abbot and the rest, explaining to them that they aren't making their case clear for open borders and removing restrictions on welfare.

I might just do that.

@raphjd:

I used outside examples because they are liberals and they are doing the same thing regardless of country.

Maybe you should have made your case clear

Well the conservatives have been in power for how long now? Near 10 years? I'd hardly describe them as liberal. Many of the points you raise whilst using the US as an example, the repeated mention of Blair etc. It isn't the liberals responsible for those issues. Think Veterans have it rough? The conservatives have had 10 years to sort those issues. Perhaps you should direct your annoyance at them?

And i was saying as a 'fellow liberal' that they should both be investigated. Rather than this back and forth of

"well he did this!"
"But she did that!"
"well what about this"
"yes but let's take a look at that"

Both sides and their supporters should calm the rhetoric down, stop bitch slapping each other and show just a tiny bit of bloody dignity.

You've said she's shown a remain bias. That article is your source. Break down for me where in that article she shows any support for any brexit argument, leave or remain.

All i can see is a woman addressing a conference aimed at supporting schoolgirls, referencing her most high profile case to show that the 'girly swots' so disdained by our PM can rise above even the government.

You see what you want to see, reality be damned.