Voyeurism: A Debate…
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I have loved to look/spy on guys since i was a youth, I find it very erotic. I still love to sneak peeks at urinals, love the long troughs you find sometimes.
Yup! I think we discover this love of looking in our youth.
I also love piss troughs! I wonder what it says about our society that this type of pisser is being replaced by individual urinals with shoulder high barriers; Or that many men seem to prefer to piss in the privacy of the toilet stall.
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For every voyeur there is an exhibitionist: PASSIVE or unknowing, and ACTIVE and getting a surge of excitement himself in being watched, no?
Is the voyeur more excited by knowing the person doesn't know he's being watched, or is he just as happy watching the active exhibitionist
such as a stripper, a person on a cam, or even porn?I believe that part of the excitement experienced is due to the surreptitious nature of the act.
Very interesting question. What do you think?
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I'm not sure what your opinion is, Stealfire, when you say "one has no expectation of privacy standing nude in a locker room or at a urinal. And then you follow up with "…but that doesn't justify covert filming." So in essence you DO have an expectation of privacy. No? My personal opinion is you would have an expectation of privacy if you were dressing/undressing at your own bench and locker but not if you were wandering around the whole lockeroom, sink area and showers wearing nothing but sandals. Although one guy cracked me up - he had this killer body and went to the scale to weigh himself, it was in a little cubby hole but not totally recessed - he dropped his towel, weighed himself and put his towel back on. All I could see additionally (without the towel) was his buttcheeks, which I certainly looked at. But how absurd - the dry towel might add 6 oz to his weight? Whatever. So to get back to the topic, all may not agree, but I think if you don't show anyone's face or other identifying details and their cock is not unusual for identification purposes, I see no harm in covert filming either. The Greeks had the Olympics in the nude and Romans had statues with erections to "guard" their houses. So this modesty thing seems to be cultural and that is why I say covert filming doesn't hurt anyone.
The contradiction in my opinion perhaps reflects that I haven't come to terms with all the many facets of the act. Is it okay to accept that something is morally wrong and do it anyway? Maybe. We human beings are very complicated. It's not possible to define our behavior in a two dimensional format. There are overlapping layers created by desire, instinct, morality, social mores, expectations, etc.
I do think it is a victimless "crime". After all, there is no interaction between the two parties. And when there is, it's no longer an act of voyeurism.
Differing opinion makes for an interesting discussion. Thanks for contributing!
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I never understood piss troughs. I just played cards last night at a former Catholic elementary school. They had one piss trough and four of the older small urinals on the wall. Even with the urinals, you could still see the other guys as there are no barriers between them. As a "grow-er not a show-er" I always found those things intimidating in my youth so I didn't use them when anyone was around. For a culture such as ours obsessed with nudity of any kind and the fact male nudity is hardly ever shown in regular movies (presumably at least in part due to male obsession with penis-size) I would love an explanation of how piss troughs were ever acceptable. In other words in the presumably "more modest" past when these things were manufactured. I did use one once when four other guys were at it, though, because you could glimpse at the other guy's equipment without turning you head at all (since they are obviously standing so close to you on either side).
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I think the troughs are merely an expedient and utilitarian means of meeting the needs of as many individuals as possible. I've seen them in the military and in Mexico and Europe. In the U.S. they seem to exist only in older buildings. I think our uptight culture prohibits their continued use here. You're right, they do create great site seeing (except for those dudes that use the very ends and turn toward the walls). One can really make the most of peripheral vision!
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I think voyeurism is partly human nature. It has very little,if anything to do with "right or wrong". There's a part of all of us that loves to watch things happen. Watch people. Observe them, unnoticed. The "wrong" part comes when someone decides to record someone, specifically, without their knowledge(for public consumption). Nevertheless, i will admit that I am a voyeur who loves an exhibitionism. If a dude(especially a hot one) doesn't mind fucking/sucking/performing in public or being caught, then i certainly don't mind watching them. I'm not into watching people piss. Standing at a urinal watching someone piss or them watching me piss does not turn me on. I am turned on by dudes who don't mind sucking or fucking in a bathroom. I remember being in Chicago for IML and this guy was on his knees sucking and swallowing a bunch of dudes. That's the kind of scene i love. Or being in a video booth at a bookstore. Or people fucking with the shades up. LOVE that shit.
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This is always a prickly subject to discuss. I've learned over the years that guys either find voyeuristic/spycam stuff hot or they find it reprehensible. (There's not a lot of grey area.) The dislike of this type of video is usually based on the notion that somebody is being viewed/filmed (for titillation purposes) without consent. While this is often true I still can't help but enjoy this style of smut. Clearly my desire to peep outweighs any moral or "legal" implications.
If somebody were to give me a choice between say an hour of candid locker room scenes with average blokes walking around in the nude or hardcore porn – I would always choose the locker room scenes. Because that's my version of fantasy fulfillment. My voyeuristic nature began as a kid wandering through community center locker rooms and seeing naked men. (This is pretty much what let me know that I was gay.) This nature has certainly followed me into adulthood. It's one of the reasons why if I spot a peephole in a restroom I'm going to take a quick look (if I can get away with it). It's also one of the reasons why I choose to collect the types of videos you would find at a pay site like "Spy On Guys". Which begs the question -- how does a site that offers legit hidden camera videos (and brags about it) stay in business? I think it's because the chances of somebody realizing they were in one of the videos is so slim that they take the risk.
I know that other torrent sites (one in particular) forbid that type of content though the occasional series sneaks through. Also, Xtube is now heavily policed for covert footage and they delete it almost instantly. Though other video sites don't seem to mind or care.
People do get in trouble when they get caught filming but it's usually for selling the videos. I'm sure most fans of voyeur flicks are familiar with the Franco "Straight off the Mat" locker room series (or Good Morning Marines). Well they got busted after somebody recognized themselves and their team mates in one of the videos.
This article goes further in to detail about the way it went down: hXXp://articles.chicagotribune.com/1999-04-04/sports/9904040218_1_wrestlers-tapes-camera
I find it odd that the authorities made such a stink but sites like Angry Young Man still offer videos like "Good Morning Marines" just under different names like "Pee Somu Hotto" (whatever that means). There's clearly a legal loophole somewhere that certain pay sites know about and it's used to their advantage.
Anyway, I'm starting to swerve. My main point is that I enjoy this particular sub-category of porn. (Though I'm not sure it all qualifies as pornography per se.) It can be considered controversial indeed. I liken this to the debate about bareback porn promoting unhealthy living. Many people are willing to watch others do something of a sexual nature that they personally would not. It's out there -- so why not give it a view...or two?
It's nice to have a forum to express thoughts and opinions on this subject. Though I will say I didn't even know this was here until a fellow voyeur pointed it out to me. I think once word gets around the posts will increase.
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Some interesting views here, I may as well add my 2 ha'pence worth.
When I last used a communal locker room I remember seeing a guy there who having showered and dried hiself then started dressing himself. Have you noticed how most guys get their underpants on first? well this guy put his socks and shoes on then a t-shirt that covered only to his waist. He spent ages fiddling with his watch strap whilst constantly moving around and thereby displaying his rather large dick to all present. Not only did he not mind being seen but clearly invited it by his actions. The sad truth is that the majority of men do not possess a dick big enough for their expectations and avoid open display if it can discreetly be done.When I first went to a naturist beach in France, I walked off the 'textile' beach into the nudist part. With some hesitation I took off my beach shorts, carried them and walked amogst similar men, some of whom were probably gay but certainly not all. I did not feel uncomfortable because we were all in the same boat! and that I think is the crux of this.I suddenly realised that the stallions I had seen in porn movies are the exception not the rule.
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I think comfort with nudity is cultural; including our sense of whether or not we measure up.
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I think comfort with nudity is cultural; including our sense of whether or not we measure up.
It's very much what you've said.
I grew up in the US and experienced the "typical" religious upbringing. That included suppression of sex/sexuality in all forms but also body shaming. I think it's one of the reasons why many children grow up with a warped perception about nudity – lacking the ability to disassociate nakedness from titillation. I distinctly remember the first time I was forced to get naked (for showering purposes) in Physical Education. (Yes there was a time when it wasn't optional.) My brain was instantly scrambled because I was excited about seeing my peers in the buff -- but I was also clothes free and up for scrutiny. (I am by all means a grower and not a show'er.) Ultimately the nightmarish thoughts about getting an erection in that moment ended any pleasure to be found. It was strictly eyes forward, scrub, rinse, immediately get dressed.
I've noticed other cultures throughout the world don't seem to have this "problem" with nudity. There are certainly nudist beaches or camps stateside but you have to seek them out -- and these types of organizations are largely frowned upon or mocked.
If you've ever watched any of the locker room footage of sports teams abroad (rugby teams etc) there seems to be no sense of shame. The location is crawling with reporters and cameras and there's almost a child-like joy these men exhibit when being nude together. Men of varied weight, height, age, and endowment -- all realizing they are displaying themselves for public consumption (on video even). Now contrast this with the horror and revulsion the American athletes exhibited when it was discovered their space was broadcast (Straight off the Mat). Of course these aren't identical situations but I'm wondering if the reaction would have been different if we (the US) didn't hide men's naked bodies away. (You're still hard pressed to find a penis on film if it's not porn.)
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hmmm on the one hand, if you choose to spy on someone else, maybe you shouldn't EVER poke fun at them, because you looked, anyway. hehehe if someone were to be turned on by seeing me, of course there's the privacy side but there's also the flattery side. hehehe
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Voyeurism has been played out in the movies, though typically portrayed in a sinister way (Sliver). but it's no secret that people have at least fantasized about it for ages, if not acted on it. I have often fantasized about voyeurism and have tried on occasion to sneak a peak (although i'm usually too scared to get a real glimpse) at guys in the HS shower or at the urinals and i love those types of porns. But for my part, technology actually becomes a problem. I have a problem with when the fantasy becomes reality. If you take part in George McFly type of voyeurism, by all means, my advice is just don't get caught. i find the "spying" version different from the peeking or sexual fantasy porno and i feel that filming someone is just wrong. Maybe it's the idea that someone is creating a hard copy of a moment of someone else without their consent. Just like how celebrity sex tapes "are never supposed to get out" but they always do, i don't feel it's right to copy that act of voyeurism as a savable, transferable piece of data. At a minimum, keep the experience your own, keep it in the moment, and for shit's sake, don't get caught!
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Just to explain - I never said I got off on watching people piss at a trough - at the time, I was quite young and in school and it was the only way to get a glimpse at another guy's equipment. Trying to have a look in the shower was way too risky because guys would instantly pick up that you were looking. Perhaps it is just easier to notice since you are not concentrating on trying to piss or whatever, but again, it is just not worth what can happen if you're caught. On the other hand, peeking using peripheral vision at the piss trough is much less risky.
And for those who enjoy watching guys piss, I am in no way passing negative judgement on you. Enjoy to your heart's content - after all variety is the spice of life…..
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Voyeurism has been played out in the movies, though typically portrayed in a sinister way (Sliver). but it's no secret that people have at least fantasized about it for ages, if not acted on it. I have often fantasized about voyeurism and have tried on occasion to sneak a peak (although i'm usually too scared to get a real glimpse) at guys in the HS shower or at the urinals and i love those types of porns. But for my part, technology actually becomes a problem. I have a problem with when the fantasy becomes reality. If you take part in George McFly type of voyeurism, by all means, my advice is just don't get caught. i find the "spying" version different from the peeking or sexual fantasy porno and i feel that filming someone is just wrong. Maybe it's the idea that someone is creating a hard copy of a moment of someone else without their consent. Just like how celebrity sex tapes "are never supposed to get out" but they always do, i don't feel it's right to copy that act of voyeurism as a savable, transferable piece of data. At a minimum, keep the experience your own, keep it in the moment, and for shit's sake, don't get caught!
So, are you saying that you're okay with the act of voyeurism in principal, but believe it should not be practiced? Or should just not be recorded? Interesting take.
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I see no problem with the whole subject at hand as so long as nobody is physically harmed by it.
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Wow. Not a single reply, comment or death threat. I think apathy is probably worse than anger or repulsion. It's hard to believe no one has a single thought to share. C'mon men, show me your balls!
It's easy to settle. Societies rear boys and girls as THE pair to merge. That is mainly because of the male female organs which look mergeable. But nowhere can we make sense that only the opposite sex can love another opposite sex; so men (in spite of risk) have fallen in love with other men). Now imagine of societies raised kids to love whoever they wished, merge with any sex. We would then see perhaps 30-40% homo while hetero remains the most desirable for a majority of people. The rule is indelibly placed to merge with the other sex and, when we get caught with our own sex, all hell breaks loose. When I was a kid a gay did not have to DO anything gay. If someone reported to the cops that so and so was gay, he was taken either to the hospital or to jail! Iran hangs them.
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I'm not sure about the accuracy of your numbers, but I get your point. Homosexuality is taboo in many, if not most countries of the world. Even here in the U.S. discrimination against homosexuals is still openly accepted. (Though, I'm not sure what this has to do with the specific topic of voyeurism.)
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I always thought that the Americans are (for a western society) pretty prude. I'm from Germany and I play football (soccer) and after training or a match we shower together in one big group shower and noone seems to mind that they are naked because everyone is.
When we have someone in the team from an islamic country (many turks in Germany) some of them (even when born and raised in Germany) shower with their boxershorts on. That is off course accapted, too, although theyy might be the target of some jokes or jests.
I once played against another team whose field was at former US barracks and they had indvidual showers there instead of a group shower, I found that pretty strange.To get to the actual topic. As this is the forum to a gay torrent site we naturally talked about male on male voyerism here, what do you guys think of men who spy on women? Do the same rules apply there? Is it sort of OKish if noone can be recognized or it is just used for personal joy or is it a despicable act?
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To get to the actual topic. As this is the forum to a gay torrent site we naturally talked about male on male voyerism here, what do you guys think of men who spy on women? Do the same rules apply there? Is it sort of OKish if noone can be recognized or it is just used for personal joy or is it a despicable act?
That's a powerful question. For some reason, I find men spying on women to be more offensive, although there probably isn't a moral difference. Maybe it's because I feel like–- implicit in the separation of lockers and such on the basis of gender--- men already have a lower expectation of privacy around other men, whereas women have a heightened one around men? Or maybe it's social conditioning to be sensitive to the group not holding the power (so to speak), in the same way that I find it more offensive to call a black person a n* than to call a white person a cracker. Or (and most likely)... maybe it's just too alien to me, since I'm not straight, and don't even peripherally feel the attraction. It's always easier to pass judgment on temptations that you're not subject to yourself.
Now that you've raised the question, I'm wondering what the average straight guy would say in answer. I suspect he'd find male on male spying more prurient than male on female spying.
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To get to the actual topic. As this is the forum to a gay torrent site we naturally talked about male on male voyerism here, what do you guys think of men who spy on women? Do the same rules apply there? Is it sort of OKish if noone can be recognized or it is just used for personal joy or is it a despicable act?
The most distinct difference between female/male vs male/male is that the all male voyeurism (being talked about here) can be done without breaking any laws. It is perfectly legal to join a gym and linger on occasion in the men's locker room. Granted you definitely want to do this type of viewing (spying) with discretion. This same can be said for certain restrooms. There's still plenty of piss troughs in older (or gay/fetish/leather) restrooms that allow for men to stand side by side with an easy view of each others cocks. For more explicit and outright sexual displays there are bathhouses. I've been to bathhouses a few times in my travels and it was never to actually get laid. It was specifically to walk around and check out all the horny dudes doing what comes naturally.
On the other hand, if a straight man wants to "peep" on women it has to be done in a way that is certainly frowned upon with the exception being mainly nude beaches/resorts. It's certainly been played for comedic in many films like Porky's. But I think most women would be horrified to find a man hiding in their locker room because it is clearly illegal for him to be there. The imbalance of "power" cannot be overlooked either. However, straight men have not hesitated to create websites that cater to their voyeuristic desires. Whenever I'm on the hunt for male voyeurism films outside of gay/male themed sites I am typically bombarded with female locker room/restroom/spy sex/upskirt offerings (that I ignore). I am not a straight man – I do not play by straight rules so my perception of this aspect of voyeurism has been conditioned by my society. (Straight) Peeping toms are generally believed to be socially inept perverts taking advantage of women.
Men who spy on men are almost NEVER talked about with the exception of cases like Dan Franco's. The reason Franco got in trouble was NOT because he was spying on guys in locker rooms but because he video taped his adventures (then sold them on the internet). Video taping is a different can of worms. (Some get off on it some find it offensive.)
I think the presumption is that most men in a private space are there for non-sexual reasons. And really…unless a guy is standing there jacking off while looking at you there's just no way of knowing he's visually molesting you. If somebody makes a veiled or outright accusation you can simply deny it and go about your business. Besides, straight men check each other out too.
Of course I'm biased in believing that men who get spied upon can handle being objectified. Mainly because I benefit from it happening. Be it in person or somebody captured in video form. There are probably better ways of expressing this point of view but ultimately I feel that same sex voyeurism is just different. There's no way it couldn't be.
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