Power Seeding and its repercussions
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@ geekguy
We've talked about this subject here a few times before.
Power seeders and power leechers both have negative effects on the system when taken to the extreme. Power seeders need to walk a fine line. On one hand they are taking up the slack left by power leechers and on the other hand they need to make sure their seeding isn't harming others.
I'm not sure how we could enforce any rules against power seeders. I agree that something needs to be done in, at least a few of the cases I've seen here.
Maybe you could make a new thread and it can finally be discussed in full, instead of as part of the overall ratio requirement issue.At Raphjd's suggestion, I am starting a new thread to discuss the question of power-seeders and the downside to the system. While this discussion originally started in a thread about the new ratio policy, that is NOT the focus of this this thread. Regardless of your feelings on the new policy, it opens up a discussion of what is "fair," what is mathematically possible, and whether some sort of formal/informal policy on super-seeding is needed.
I am posting here now my original – and somewhat long-winded -- post to which Raphjd replied.
@geekguy:I think it's important to remember we're talking about minimum ratios. A fair ratio is 1, meaning you've uploaded as much as you've downloaded. I realize it's mathematically impossible for everyone to have a ratio of 1 on every torrent, but it's depressing to see people on torrent sites who download hundreds of gigabytes of stuff and can't be bothered to get a ratio at or close to 1, making themselves an ultimate drain on those sites…
I'm not trying to be rude or target any one person, especially if they are new to torrents and are trying to do the right thing, but I think the major reason for low ratios is that people just don't want to share.This got me thinking about the mathematics of all this "fairness" talk, and so I am going to type out some number stuff. Please look it over and see if I am making sense, or if I just don't understand enough how the ratios and such work in BitTorrent systems.
Example#1 (simplified hypothetical): I upload a new torrent, and it gets 2 peers who each download it to seed. They each get half of the file from me and half from each other. So at the end there are now three complete files, but mine has to come out of the numbers, as it was a pure seed. So the maximum possible AVERAGE ratio for the torrent is the total number of completed torrent downloads (TD) minus my initial seed amount (IS), all divided by the same total download. (TD-IS)/TD. In this example (2 new files - 1 complete initial seed), or (2-1)/2, which equals a ratio of .5 Which is what each of the peers in the example would have (they downloaded a whole file and each uploaded half of a file).
This general formula, (TD-IS)/TD, shows that it is mathematically impossible for everyone in a swarm to have a ratio of 1 for that swarm, although the bigger the swarm, the closer the possibility becomes. That is why uploading is so important, and why the seeding bonus is as well, giving a little boost to the swarm numbers.
However, I noticed something in a just completed upload that impacts this overall discussion.
EXAMPLE#2 (actually just happened, although the numbers have been rounded a little to make the math a little easier)
I uploaded a new torrent last night, set it seeding, and then went to bed. When I looked at it this morning, It had been snatched 45 times, with 35 of those still seeding. My ratio for the file was about 5.0, meaning I had uploaded the file essentially five times (I know that may not be quite correct, as there were some bits more and some bits less, but I am not sure if it really affects the general concern of this example)
When I looked at the seeding list, I noticed something. There were two seeders with high sharing ratios (14 and 9, must have great speeds!), a few with ratios around 1-2, and most of the others had low ratios, even though they were still seeding. Using the formula above, (45-5)/45=.888 possible average ratio for the torrent. But aren't those two with high high ratios removing from the others a good chunk of the files needed to get a ratio of much at all? I know that each swarm is an open system, but it goes dead at some point, and is closed then. So I guess the question is this; while high-ratio seeders are great for spreading the torrent, and help to offset leechers, at some point it seems like they become a negative for everyone else trying to seed that file, regardless of how much someone wants to seed. It is possible that some leechers drop out after getting the file because they simply cannot compete with the power-seeders. I don't believe that is true for everyone, but it could be a factor. Maybe part of the ethic of being a seeder, especially in a closed community like this site, is to seed to a reasonable ratio of 2-4 (something to offset the inevitable leechers), but to stop seeding when your ratio gets high, to give others an equal chance to seed and build up their ratio. ??? Maybe the site would enforce that/maybe not?I didn't write all that to seem technical, because I am not a computer person, and only know the math as a hobby. Just putting it out there to have the discussion. Maybe it would help us to figure out what is "fair" in more objective terms, instead of the heated debate and emotion that many, including myself, have posted.
Thoughts???
I hope it sets the tone for a rational, informative discussion on the issue. I certainly don't claim to be an authority on all of this, just intrigued by all of the discussion, and hoping to foster a robust intellectual discussion where we all might gain some understanding. Please point out flaws in my logic, add information which supports or undercuts, and generally advances the issue.Please post replies!
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As in the post of mine you quoted, the issue is a serious one that needs honest and serious discussion.
To me, this all boils down to "BT traffic management" {see my sort of guide in the Guides - How To section} and fairness, for everyone.
How can a person who has just over seeded a torrent by 50 times, complain that other seeders on that same torrent aren't pulling their weight?! As an example, when I first became a moderator here, I got 2 PMs from users complaining that others on the torrent weren't seeding enough. When I looked at the torrent I found that both of the complainers seeded 80+% of the torrent's total traffic. This wasn't due to lack of trying on other members' part, as most were still trying to seed, but their upload speeds couldn't compete.
This kind of over seeding needs to stop in order for things to be fair for everyone.
If the power seeders want to seed more, they should go to the torrents that need the help.
Now don't get me wrong, I love power seeders. I just think they need to be more conscious of how their seeding will affect others.
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Interesting topic.
Perhaps the solution would be for the system to auto notify these power seeder a "reminder" to stop seeding when they have reach the ratio of 4+ while there are other 5 more people also seeding.
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I think that it should be made more clearly that you ONLY get bonus points for 1 single torrent you're seeding TOTAL, meaning that if you seed 20+ torrents at the same time you won't get 20xbonus.
I have seen people seeding like… 200 torrents at the same time, which, obviously, doesn't help to make the figures round. The average upload speed on those was about... 2bits per second. bits, not bytes, nor megabytes.
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I have seen people seeding like… 200 torrents at the same time, which, obviously, doesn't help to make the figures round. The average upload speed on those was about... 2bits per second. bits, not bytes, nor megabytes.
My client is set to run 10 torrents at a time, but often times the tracker reads the torrents in queued mode as active. Last night it listed me as having 129 torrents seeding, but only 10 were actually active.
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Perhaps the solution would be for the system to auto notify these power seeder a "reminder" to stop seeding when they have reach the ratio of 4+ while there are other 5 more people also seeding.
I like that. Is it possible? ???
Part of the issue there may be it is not just seeding that comes into play. I have noticed myself become a power-UL on some torrents while I am downloading. Usually this is with an initial seed running slow, or a torrent with only a few seeds and more leechers. That is what happened in my example #2 at the start of this thread. My upload speed wasn't great while initially seeding, and the torrent had a lot of leechers wanting it from the very start. Maybe the 14 and 9 ratios had no options?
If I slow my upload while downloading it slows my download because I seem stingy. Maybe there are settings I am too ignorant to adjust? I have become more aware of the problem, and if I am downloading a slow initial seed and my ratio starts to get high, I pause the DL, giving others a "turn at the hose" so to speak.
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On a separate note;
I have been reading some of my posts on this and other threads, and notice I go on more than most. Am I writing too much? I don't know the etiquette in this, but I don't want to seem pushy or overbearing. I just enjoy the opportunity to discuss things I could not with the people around me. Please advise.
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Keep posting. More debate/discussion is always a good thing.
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Don't worry, you might happen to be "the guy" who writes lengthly post on this forum. As long as you are writing positive contribution to the community, keep it coming. People who don't like reading long post can skip over them.
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Am new to this discussion, have a ratio of 0.47.
The last couple of months I downloaded 4 or 5 of the older posted DVDS.
Kept them on seeding, but nobody wants em.
My ratio was slowly dropping.
Now I got a week to up my ratio, that is impossible which means I am forced to leave this site? -
Am new to this discussion, have a ratio of 0.47.
The last couple of months I downloaded 4 or 5 of the older posted DVDS.
Kept them on seeding, but nobody wants em.
My ratio was slowly dropping.
Now I got a week to up my ratio, that is impossible which means I am forced to leave this site?No, not forced to leave. Just won't be able to download, only upload. If you are downloading, stop, and just seed seed seed.
There are several threads in Support and the original Rationator thread that would be better for this line of question. This thread is about the other end of the ratio, power seeding.
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My client is set to run 10 torrents at a time, but often times the tracker reads the torrents in queued mode as active. Last night it listed me as having 129 torrents seeding, but only 10 were actually active.
Does that mean that people can get seeding bonus even thought they are not actually seeding, just paused/queued? sounds like a cheat in the system. Not accusing you, but some of those whiners out there with low ratios could cheat.
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Lets take another approach, using the simplest three-peer example :
UL - who has received approval to upload the complete 1 GB file and has an upload capacity of 100 kb/s
PS - who has power seeder capability of an uploading rate of 1Mb/s
AJ- who has the average joe uploading rate of 25 kb/sA. caveat: This example assumes that UL seeds linearly in time, starting with the beginning file data and ending with the last of the 1 GB file data.
For the sake of convenience, lets assume that both PS and AJ download at the same rate, although usually PS can also download faster than AJ.
PS and AJ start leeching at the same time.
UL now seeds at 100 kb/s to both PS and AJ.
Immediately, UL starts seeding and continues to seed the entire 1 GB file for at least 1GB /100 kb/s = 10,000 seconds or 2.78 hours.
Both PS and AJ download at the rate of 50 kb/s each.At no point does AJ have any downloaded data that PS could want or need and vice versa and both complete the leeching for 5.54 hours.
Lets now assume, as is usually the case, that PS can download faster than AJ.
If the system permits PS to download faster than 50 kb/s, then :
1. At all points in time, PS now has the upload advantage over AJ. At all times both UL and PS have file data that AJ needs to download.
2. At all points in time, AJ has no file data that either UL or PS could want or need.
In this scenario, AJ has performed 0 seeding, while PS has seeded to AJ.In the real world of GT with multiple seeders and leechers, PS very much has seeding advantage to the detriment of the AJs, if PS can download faster than the AJs or if PS has commenced leeching earlier than the AJs.
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B. Lets now break the caveat and assume that UL seeds the beginning of the file to PS and the ending of the file to AJ. Both PS and AJ have the same download rate.
PS now has the choice of downloading from either UL or AJ or both.
AJ now has the choice of downloading from either UL or PS or both.If PS has a seeding rate of 1MB/s over AJs rate of 25 kb/s, then potentially AJ will have downloaded from PS for a 1MB/s / 100 kb/s = a 10:1 ratio from PS:UL, all other things being equal, by the end of the download.
PS will have downloaded from AJ for a 25 kb/s / 100 kb/s = a 1:4 ratio from AJ:UL.In this scenario, the bottom line very much depends on the download rate of PS, the ability of PS to acquire as much file data as possible in the quickest time possible, in order to realize the potential of his seeding rate.
In the GT real world, so long as there are leechers and enough of them, PS will eventually reach his seeding potential.
The conclusion would be that PS can add fairness to the AJs by reducing his downloading speed as well as by reducing his seeding speed.
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B. Lets now break the caveat and assume that UL seeds the beginning of the file to PS and the ending of the file to AJ. Both PS and AJ have the same download rate.
PS now has the choice of downloading from either UL or AJ or both.
AJ now has the choice of downloading from either UL or PS or both.If PS has a seeding rate of 1MB/s over AJs rate of 25 kb/s, then potentially AJ will have downloaded from PS for a 1MB/s / 100 kb/s = a 10:1 ratio from PS:UL, all other things being equal, by the end of the download.
PS will have downloaded from AJ for a 25 kb/s / 100 kb/s = a 1:4 ratio from AJ:UL.In this scenario, the bottom line very much depends on the download rate of PS, the ability of PS to acquire as much file data as possible in the quickest time possible, in order to realize the potential of his seeding rate.
In the GT real world, so long as there are leechers and enough of them, PS will eventually reach his seeding potential.
The conclusion would be that PS can add fairness to the AJs by reducing his downloading speed as well as by reducing his seeding speed.
Whew! Welcome to the thread.
I will leave it to others more knowledgeable about torrents to confirm the stuff in your post.
My own observation/question regarding all you wrote:
At the beginning of B you assumed that PS got the first half and AJ got the second half of the file from UL. Since they both are dependent on UL's speed, they get equal amounts. At that point, when each has half, PS and AJ each make choices about who to get the remaining half of file from. Then your 10:1 and 1:4 proportions apply. So reducing download speed becomes factor only once a full copy of the original file has been seeded. correct? -
I will leave it to others more knowledgeable about torrents to confirm the stuff in your post.
So reducing download speed becomes factor only once a full copy of the original file has been seeded. correct?
No, reducing the download speed is important, if the downloading does not take place linearly - for example, I download parts of the beginning of the file from one seeder and the last parts of the file from someone else, both taking place simultaneously.
When I started this thread, I thought it would be simple, but the more I thought about it and wrote, the more I realized how complicated it is, because we need to know how the system of leeching and seeding works.
This is where Administration steps in, to tell us how the seeding and leeching processes actually work, or point us in the right direction where we can find out.
Thanks for the welcome.
