Gay and Muslim
-
You are still obsessed with the protestant Christian notion that religions are defined by "Holy Texts".
You do realise that Christianity existed before the New Testament did?
You observe that Christians "Cherry Pick" from the OT and the NT and Muslims basically ignore the Quran, but you don't get that YOUR understanding of the relationship between religion and "holy texts" is wrong, not their's?
As I said earlier, one of the weirdest things you find on social media is "atheists" insisting that Christians and Muslims be religious fundamentalists. In other words, atheists who have a purely fundamentalist (mis-)understanding of Religion.
At most, a literal interpretation of the Quran (and the Bible) only condemns anal sex between men. However:
1. Girls are publicly caned in Malaysia for kissing in public (not men and not having anal sex).
2. Men are arrested and imprisoned in Egypt for dancing together at a party on a boat (not having anal sex).
3. A boy is expelled from school in the USA for wanting to bring his boyfriend to the school prom (not wanting to have anal with his boyfriend at the school prom).
4. A B&B in the USA refuses to honour a booking made by two men (to stay in a room, not a booking to have anal sex) because it is against their "Christian Values".If religion is based on "holy texts" as you insist, how do you explain this discrepancy?
-
You keep proving that holy texts mean absolutely nothing so there is no problem to wipe my ass with the pages or burning them.
Oddly though, believers get bitchy when you disrespect their holy texts.
You are not a christian if you ignore what the bible claims Jesus said and did. Same with muslims ignoring the quran.
Believers always have excuses on why they do things prohibited in their holy texts.
As I pointed out earlier in this thread, islam prohibits looking at another man in a faggy way. That's far more than just anal sex.
Again, if you refuse to follow founder of your religion, then you aren't that religion. It's like homophobic jews and muslims that eat pork.
You know your god is made up when he like everything you like and hates everything you hate.
-
Yes, of course religion is made up. I already said that religion is a cultural phenomenon and that "sacred texts" as cultural artefacts. No intelligent person would seriously believe otherwise. It is strange that you seem to have doubts.
Religious beliefs change every few decades, even more frequently now. Many religious beliefs that have been falsified by science have dropped out of fashion. Liberation theology, evangelical prosperity theology and the psychotic interpretations of the Quran that ISIS/DAESH (/CIA/MOSAD) have been pushing are new and have not existed previously in those religions.
I personally have no use for the religious beliefs of Christio-Islam and I suspect you don't either. The thing that is most strange about this thread is that the religious belief that is most obviously false, that is most obviously inconsistent, that is unique to only Protestant Christianity until very recently, that you yourself have given examples of as being false, is the belief you hold onto most strongly. That is that religions are defined by sacred texts.
Of course you are going to have a hard time holding onto that for Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, Confucianism, Taoism, Shinto etc. etc. etc. for what sacred text do you suggest defines them?
This topic basically says, "Being Gay is inconsistent with being Muslim because the Quran condemns anal sex between men" despite the fact that their are millions of religious gay muslims, that Islamic literature and art have many examples of homoeroticism and that until very very recently the Islamic world has been more tolerant of homosexual relationships than the West. These are the facts only contradicted by your deep devotion to the obviously false belief that people's religion is defined by what is written in books.
-
All religion is made up. The only difference between a cult and a religion is the number of followers.
How can you (generic) go against "the perfect word of god", as the quran claims to be? You have to be a pretty shitty believer in your god.
ISIS is using the quran's actual verses. "The religion of peace" is a lie when compared to what the quran actually says.
AGAIN, if you are willing to ignore "the perfect word" of your god, you are a shitty believer.
If you refuse to eat pork because the quran tells you not to, but take a dick up the ass or look at another man in a lustful way, you are a shitty muslim.
NOTE: I'm focusing on islam because that's the topic of the thread. However, all religions are the same; ie shite.
BTW; Buddhism does have written holy texts; https://www.thebuddhistsociety.org/page/scriptures-texts
-
Interesting. An Atheists making judgements about who is and who isn't a "shitty" Muslim based on his own religious beliefs about the importance of religious texts.
Yes, Buddhism has a huge volume of scriptures but none of them define Buddhism, though I guess you as a non-Buddhist are going to tell me as a Buddhist about my own religion. Not surprising since you seem to think yourself qualified to teach gay Muslims about Islam.
https://www.newsweek.com/muslim-white-evangelical-gay-marriage-907627
-
As long as you are not in a Muslim country with a threat of retribution who are you hurting?
-
Believers will always use mental gymnastics to justify their position on their religious beliefs.
"I only eat halal food because that's what the quran tells me to do." and the same person "Fuck what the quran says, I want cock up my ass".
"The quran is the perfect word of god." and the same person "Fuck what the quran says, I want cock wrapped in bacon shoved up my ass."
-
Believers will always use mental gymnastics to justify their position on their religious beliefs.
"I only eat halal food because that's what the quran tells me to do." and the same person "Fuck what the quran says, I want cock up my ass".
"The quran is the perfect word of god." and the same person "Fuck what the quran says, I want cock wrapped in bacon shoved up my ass."
And? Whoever said religious faith is rational and consistent? In fact the famous Christian theologian Thomas Aquinas (the author of the five proofs of god that Richard Dawkins dismally failed to understand let alone refute in his God Delusion book) said that if people were forced to believe because of reason, then they would not be saved because they hadn't made the choice. An Islamic philosopher who's name escapes me at the moment said about the same thing.
If you believe in the kind of god Christio-Muslims believe in, it is not subject to reason. Strangely, many pseudo-atheists remain embedded in Western Christian culture and so believe that an idea based on facts and reason can itself be a truth. Presumably these ideas/truths float around in the universal supernatural mind (but don't mention the word "god").
Of course ideas only exist in one place that we know of in the entire universe; human minds. Only facts (primarily phenomenological facts) are truths.
-
So you have made the entire point of atheists; religion is totally made up bullshit.
-
Yes, religion is totally made up, obviously.
Not all religions are theistic, depend on a belief in the supernatural or require any beliefs at all (for example Zen Buddhism) so you can be religious and be an atheist.
Religion is essentially psychotherapy. Religious beliefs are psychotherapeutically useful fictions (useful bullshit). Their usefulness does not depend on them being logical, consistent or "true". Meditation, drugs or counselling by a psychologist are more effective.
Most of the literature, art, plays, movies ever made are depict something that is "made up" i.e. fictional. Many people are inspired by the story of Luke Skywalker and the concept of The Force but very few of them think that the story is non-fiction. Something doesn't have to be true to be useful. Not everything made up is bullshit.
The theories of science are similarly useful fictions. They are made up by scientists and mathematicians and tested against facts. If they explain existing facts then they are useful. If they predict future facts they are even more useful. If they are falsified by facts they are modified or discarded. They are never true.
I don't believe there is a god or there is a supernatural because those beliefs are useless to me. I have no problem if someone else finds those beliefs useful to them as long as they don't think the beliefs that they chose authorise them to affect the lives of people who haven't made the same choice. Historically there is only one religion that assumes that authorisation, and it isn't Islam.
-
Today I went with some friends to the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras Festival Fair Day. In the section were religious groups have their stalls, I noticed the Sydney Queer Muslims stall.
I wasn't surprised that there was no long queue of Gay Christians and Atheists waiting to explain to them how they don't understand their own religion and that Gay Christians and Atheists know more about Islam that Gay Muslims do, because such people only exist in social media echo chambers, not in the real world.
-
OR, it could be that liberals love to use violence when they are disagreed with.
-
I know it is out of fashion in the new world of reactionary populist conservatives, but facts outweigh opinions. The social media mantra is "everyone has a right to their own opinions", but not all opinions have the same weight. Some opinions are supported by facts and some are falsified by them. Some opinions are wrong. People do not have a right to hold an opinion that is falsified by the facts.
The opinion that it is raining outside now does not have the same weight as the opinion that it isn't. Depending on the facts, one of these is wrong. The other is right. So let's weight the apparently majority opinion on this thread against some facts:
OPINION
“You can’t be gay and be a Muslim”.
FACTS
1. There are thousands, probably millions of gay Muslims. I know a few of them personally.
2. There are gay friendly mosques in France, Canada, USA, Australia etc..
3. Recently gay couples have been married in mosques.
4. Sydney has a “Queer Muslims” group. I saw their stall at the Mardi Gras fair day last weekend. I know many other countries have similar groups.
5. Until very recently (late 1970s), in Muslim countries that do not have a legacy of European colonial laws, homosexuality was not criminalised. Homosexuality was explicitly legalised in the Ottoman Empire (including most of the Middle East) in the 19th century, long before many Western countries. In Iran it was never illegal until 1979. In Indonesia, the most populous Muslim nation, homosexuality has never been illegal until very recently where it was outlawed in two provinces for Muslim residents of those provinces only.
6. European gay men used to migrate to North Africa (mainly Morocco) and the Middle East or the Greek Islands under Ottoman rule to escape persecution and stigma. e.g. https://www.gaytorrent.ru/details.php?returnto=%2Fmytorrents.php&id=1d2499d5cba28cbab9f5b89e8d356c2c02d21710dd948dad
7. There are very many examples of explicit homoeroticism in Islamic Art and literature.
8. There are many examples of Islamic rulers who were homosexual. One of the rulers of Cordoba had a male harem. Another (maybe the same one) had his wife cut her hair and dress as a man to be more pleasing to him. The first Mughal emperor Babur wrote in his memoir of his infatuation with a young man in his youth and his refusal to sleep with the wives that had been arranged for him because of his love for the young man.
9. In the majority of countries (including Muslim countries) where homosexuality is still illegal, the laws derive from inherited colonial European criminal codes that conservative societies have in many cases failed to reform, not from Islamic law. e.g. Bangladesh, Malaysia, Singapore, India (until recently), and many African countries inherited anti-sodomy laws from the British criminal code.So clearly, the opinion “You can’t be gay and be a Muslim” is falsified by the facts. The opinion is wrong.
-
"You can be gay and a muslim" is only true if you ignore the perfect word of god.
Think about that, you have to ignore what you believe is the perfect word of your god.
Why not get fucked by a guy wearing a bacon condom, while sucking off a dog?!
-
"You can't be gay and Muslim" is a belief or an opinion.
"There are thousands of gay Muslims" is a fact.
Facts falsify opinions in the real world.
I wonder how many Americans when they hear Fox News weather forecast that it is not going to rain walk around outside soaked to the skin in the rain saying "It can't be raining! It can't be raining!".
Sane people when faced with facts that contradict their opinions realise that there is something wrong with their opinion.
-
You can't be muslim if you ignore the absolute perfect word of god.
I guess I can claim to be a buddhist, despite the fact that I don't follow it's teaching.
I can claim to be the King of Siam, but it doesn't make it true.
If that now nearly 60yo man, can be a 6yo girl and Shaun "Talcum X" King can be black, then I guess there can be gay muslims.
When mt nephew said he was a doctor last weekend, I guess he really was, despite not having started 1st grade yet. He was a fireman a few days before that.
-
You can't be muslim if you ignore the absolute perfect word of god.
I guess I can claim to be a buddhist, despite the fact that I don't follow it's teaching.
I can claim to be the King of Siam, but it doesn't make it true.
If that now nearly 60yo man, can be a 6yo girl and Shaun "Talcum X" King can be black, then I guess there can be gay muslims.
When mt nephew said he was a doctor last weekend, I guess he really was, despite not having started 1st grade yet. He was a fireman a few days before that.
A century ago most people in MENA were illiterate, were there no Muslims if religiosity was based on hearsay?
To your point about the literal word of god, that is true if you look at the belief system in its entirety but ultimately what matters is how millions of people perceive themselves and project that on to the world.
It is most definitely harder to reconcile who you are and who your belief system wants you to be when the texts are supposed to be the literal word of god and there is an emphasis on being a perfect being. But it is not impossible.
The original question was "Gay and Muslim" and not "Gay and Islam". Followers of other Abrahamic religions reconcile the two things, so why can't individual Muslims? Sure others aren't usually as rigid but does that matter for the individual who is contravening a core portion of their belief system and whose religiosity is questioned by the other followers of said religion? An LGBT-affirming evangelical is still an evangelical even if most of their peers think they're an unbeliever.
This is a valid point:
Religion is a social phenomenon learned within social groups.
-
Followers of other Abrahamic religions reconcile the two things, so why can't individual Muslims?
As I noted a few times, this discussion is about islam/muslim. That is why I focused on that.
I also pointed out that the "unaltered, perfect word of god" isn't the same as "inspired by god". Jews and christians also readily admit that there are countless translation errors in their holy texts. Muslims insist that their holy texts are the absolute perfect, unaltered word of go, except of course for the satanic verses which they lose their minds when you bring them up and they scream for your death, as we've already seen. Anyone who doesn't know about the satanic verses should google it. Salman Rushdie (full name; Sir Ahmed Salman Rushdie) still has a death warrant on his head for writing the truth about the satanic verses.
True, just like with jews, you can be an ethnic muslim and not a religious one. However, the same is not true for christians. Being "ethnic, not religious" means you can eat pork and suck dick. I fully get that. But how can you be a follower of a religion that despises you as much as I despise those that torture animals?! Do I need to post photos of how muslims treat gays?
Religious gay and feminist muslims always crack me up.
-
I will say it again.
There are thousands of gay Muslims. There are gay friendly mosques. There are queer Muslim support and activist groups. Islam has a long history of tolerance of homosexuality before political changes in the late 20th century. These are undeniable facts.
That you can't be gay and Muslim is an opinion made clearly false by these facts.
Continuing to hold an opinion that is contradicted by facts is insanity, but all too common among conservatives. After all, many still believe things like Obama is a Muslim and that Japan applies a "bowling ball" test to American car imports.
After all, isn't everyone entitled to their own opinion? Aren't people entitled to their opinions that 1 + 1 = 346, the best place to grown pineapples is Antarctica and the moon is made of margarine?
-
I will also say it again.
They are ignoring what they claim to be the absolute perfect, unaltered word of god. They are telling their god to fuck off because
I'm sure there are muslims that enjoy getting fucked by pigs, while sucking off dogs, then relaxing in a bath of their dad's jizz.
I'm sure there are muslims that believe in the satanic verses.
I'm sure there are muslims that do all sorts of shit that is totally against their holy texts.
I'm sure there are muslims that say shit like; "If you even think of drawing a picture of Mohamed, I will put this bacon sandwich down and tell Avi the jew to stop fucking me, so I can go over there to blow you up."
We have a bunch of muslim feminists who claim that islam is the only religion that supports and treats women equally. They then spin all manner of lies because they know that most people will just believe then. They lie about other religions to make islam sound pro-women.
NOTE: The bit about father's jizz is a reference to a muslim YouTuber that says that if you don't follow the quran, then you have no moral issue with drinking your daddy's sperm.
AND AGAIN, I'm focusing on islam here because that is the topic of this discussion. All religions are shite and all believers cherry-pick the bits they like.
These are some photos of how islam treats gays. They are the least gruesome I could find.
The hanging photo is of two 15yos being hanged for being gay in Iran.
Let's not forget that muslim survey about 5-7 years ago. The majority of muslims wanted gays to be criminalized in the west. Over a 3rd wanted the death penalty for it. In the UK, they wanted a ban on gays being near any kids, for any reason. Even to this day, we have muslims protesting UK schools for teaching equality for LGBTs, while demanding special rights for muslims.
